Quake: TV 100, 6 skills -- need a few pointers

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:55 am

OK, I'm going to the West Coast Quake, work permitting. I'll be bringing either the Cleaverland Greenz or a Pro Elf team. My PEs (the Mighty Swans of Alfheim) aren't Citadel, so bringing a PE team is contingent on getting and painting such a team.

So, if I have to, Orcs, and if I can, Pro Elves.

1M, 6 skills or 5 skills and a +MA, all on different players, can't pick same skill for two players at same position.

So... I'm open for advice, but here are my ideas. However I do it, I'm going to try to win on positioning skills, both because that's my general predilection and because the particular format has few skills and jives nicely with it.

Orcs:

A: 4x Blitzer, 4x BOB, 1x Troll, 1x Thrower, 1x Lino, 2x RR, 1x AC
Blitzer w/SF, Blitzer w/Guard, Troll w/Guard, BOB w/Block, BOB w/SF, Blitzer w/Tackle, Frenzy or Grab (not sure which).

B: 4x Blitzer, 4x BOB, 1x Troll, 2x Thrower, 1x Lino, 1x RR
Blitzer w/SF, Blitzer w/Guard, Troll w/Guard, BOB w/Block, BOB w/SF, Thrower w/Leader

Or PEs:
A: 2x Blitzer, 2x Catcher, 1x Thrower, 6x Lino, 2x RR, 1x Apoth
Lino w/Kick, Lino w/SS, Thrower w/SS (Thrower = lino who can take a duplicate skill in this context), Blitzer w/Tackle, Blitzer w/Leap, Catcher w/Leap.

B: 2x Blitzer, 3x Catcher, 2x Thrower, 4x Lino, 2x RR (or 1 Thrower, 5 Linos and an AC)
Lino w/Kick, Lino w/SS, Thrower w/SS, Blitzer w/Tackle, Catcher w/Leap, Thrower w/Leader or Lino w/Wrestle (not sure which).

Advice?

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:31 am

Normally I'd take 3 rerolls, 4 blitzers, 4 bobs, 1 thrower, 2 line orcs and that leaves 10k for a CL or AC.

I'd only drop to 2 RRs for the 12th player, which means either a 2nd thrower or a extra line orc and having 20k spare.

Skills make it interesting. +MA isn't that great as a single skill with no chance of further progression that I think I'd take it. Frenzy on a blitzer (or tackle if you prefer), 4 guarding bobs and leader on the thrower.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:54 am

I can only take one Guard BOB. That's my major reason for the Troll: to make sure I win the ST war. Remember, Dwarfs can only take one Guard Longbeard....

Because I can't have multiple Guard on the BOBs, I think I'm best off turning my BOB skills in for ILBs rather than ends, as the ends will take some hits and wear down faster.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:35 pm

block thrower
block guard bob
guard tackle strip ball blitzers

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:55 pm

I favour Frenzy over Tackle on an Orc Blitzer.

I'd also favour Leader on your Pro Elf Thrower and wouldn't consider Leap at all in this format.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:22 pm

PubBowler wrote:...wouldn't consider Leap at all in this format.

Am I wrong to be hesitant to take Dodge?

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:29 pm

mattgslater wrote:
PubBowler wrote:...wouldn't consider Leap at all in this format.
Am I wrong to be hesitant to take Dodge?

It's a little risky as Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves are both popular tournie sides and you don't need very much Tackle to negate Dodges usefulness.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:13 pm

That's my thinking. I know how to do it with Dodge or with Leap, but I don't know how to make elves work with neither. I mean, it's possible (for instance, I'll happily play elves in a rookie game), but it's a lot harder. Plus, NOS/Leap is just obnoxious. Of course NOS/a lot of things is obnoxious, but most of those are in the P category.

I could drop the Apoth for a third TRR and take Block on the Catcher.... the extra RR would be a lot like a late-half Dodge or SH skill. Or I could take 3RR and go the Leap route, as the RRs make Leaping a little safer.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:51 pm

My buddy has an Undead team, and he'll let me use it if I paint it. I kind of like the way Undead skill access works in a 6-skill tourney. The team rosters are LRB5, so Skels are 30k. How about this?

2x Mummy, 2x Wight, 4x Ghoul, 3x Zombie, 2x Skel, 2x TRR... or 2x Zombie, 1x Skel, 3x TRR

Ghoul with Wrestle
Ghoul with SS
Ghoul with Block
Mummy with Guard
Wight with Guard
one of... Ghoul/Wight/Skel with Kick, Wight with MB (for 3x MB), +MA or Stand Firm, Mummy with Grab or Jug, Ghoul with SH, or Zombie with Fend. Not sure which. The Fend Zombie, if I take him is there to shore up the right side from the LOS, with the inverted defense using the SS cornerback.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- --|-- -- Z1 MG Z2 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- WG --|-- M1 -- -- -- -- ??|-- -- GS --
-- GB -- --|?? -- -- -- -- GW --|-- ?? -- --
?? = Wight, Skel or Ghoul; one of them may have a skill.  The first letter indicates the player type, the second is the skill initial, so WG is a Wight with Guard and GW is a Ghoul with Wrestle.  

If I take a Wight with SF, this is what I'll do.
-- -- -- --|-- -- Z1 MG Z2 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- WG --|-- M1 -- -- -- -- WS|-- -- GS --
-- GB -- --|S1 -- -- -- -- GW --|-- G1 -- --

Whereas if I go for a Ghoul with Kick... I'd do the same thing if I took DT or SH or +MA.
-- -- -- --|-- -- Z1 MG Z2 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- WG --|-- M1 -- -- -- -- W1|-- -- GS --
-- GB -- --|GK -- -- -- -- GW --|-- S1 -- --

Or a Zombie with Fend or Wight with MB or +MA...
-- -- -- --|-- -- Z1 MG ZF -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- WG --|-- M1 -- -- -- -- S1|-- -- GS --
-- GB -- --|G1 -- -- -- -- GW --|-- WM -- --

Is this better? 13 players or a third RR? I'm leaning toward either Kick on a Ghoul, MB on a Wight or Fend on a Zombie. I really like the idea of 13 players plus 3x MB, as that's about the hardest-hitting non-Khemri roster available in these rules: I can foul with the skel every turn!

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:40 pm

For the Pro Elves, I would favour a 3rd Re-roll instead of an Apothecary.

I would also favour taking skills on both Catchers (say Wrestle and Dodge).

----------------

For the Orcs, +1MA on a Thrower looks appealing.

I would also favour taking 12 players, 2 Re-rolls and Leader. Which suggests taking 2 Throwers.

Hope this helps.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:35 pm

I like MA on my Throwers, but I'm not going to spend one of six improvements turning MA5 into MA6. 6 to 7, that I get... and I kind of toyed with the idea of taking a +MA Blitzer. But as much as I like the idea of MA6 on a Thrower, I don't see it as a game-breaker in itself.

I also really like the idea of taking a Troll, as if I don't I have to put an ST3 player on the line or at ILB, and the major advantage of Orcs is that they get the outrageous inside strength of Lizards (better than Chaos, even, in that context), with brutal, aggressive, and fast-enough WZ and backfield play. The offense is like water; it'll find the weak point and flow through. I can eliminate "up the middle" neatly, and force everything to happen on one side or another. Without the Troll, bash teams will have the option to put pressure up the middle. 2RR hurts a bit, but I've found that the third one is a lot less valuable than the second one, and I can make do with 2 if I like my Thrower situation and can phrase most rolls as 8/9, 26/27 or 35/36. The Troll's MB helps with that, too... as if I start getting man-up I can make more 3d hits.

This talk is really making me think hard about Undead. ST5/Guard on the nose, a SS corner to cover for a nickel, a Blodger and a Wrodger, and Guard/Blodge on the corner opposite the SS'er... that will be hard to break into in a format that won't likely have much Grab or Tackle. That Undead team will have a hard time against pure Dwarfs, though... I totally see how to handle CDs using it, but straight Dwarfs (like the Dwarf team being hashed out in another thread) give me the willies on a Ghoul-driven Undead team.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:48 pm

Another question re: Orcs: I'm not much of a tournament player: if I should primarily be thinking about bash, then maybe my final skill should be Guard on a BOB.

If I did that, I'd have a Block, a Guard and an SF BOB, plus a rookie and a Guard Troll, covering the three line spots and the two inside LBs. So Block and SF go to the ILB spots and Guard and Rookie are my ends, with the Troll on the nose. Which side does Guard-boy protect: Stand Firm or Block? Which way will the opponent build if I do that? I think I want SF-boy to be Mike (take the blitz), while Block-boy should be Moe (on the weak side). This probably means I should put the Guard BOB in on the side with Block, right? But if I do, how will a bash opponent game the line?

Code: Select all

-- -- BG TG B1 -- --
-- BB -- -- -- BS --

Is the real truth that no matter how I line up, the action will all happen on the corners? The CBs are Blitzers; one has Stand Firm, and the other is protected by an OLB with Guard. I've been there a couple times, but as a league guy my team tends to outgrow that dilemma after a game or two. Which one will get hit? Should I try to set the SF BOB (as opposed to the one with Block) on the presumptive strong side or the weak?

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:13 am

mattgslater wrote: Another question re: Orcs: I'm not much of a tournament player: if I should primarily be thinking about bash, then maybe my final skill should be Guard on a BOB.

Yes it should be.

And Undead do seem to benefit from this skill set.

I favour 3 rerolls over players (dropping a ghoul) but this is where there is a 5 skill limit, here you can get 6 skills.

Possible ones:

Ghouls with Sure Hands, Block, Wrestle & Side Step with Wights with Guard & Frenzy.

Mummies with Guard, Wights with Frenzy & Guard, and Ghouls with 3 skills from the above list. (Fits with a 3 ghoul 3 reroll lineup).

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:43 am

mattgslater wrote:That's my thinking. I know how to do it with Dodge or with Leap, but I don't know how to make elves work with neither. I mean, it's possible (for instance, I'll happily play elves in a rookie game), but it's a lot harder. Plus, NOS/Leap is just obnoxious. Of course NOS/a lot of things is obnoxious, but most of those are in the P category.

I could drop the Apoth for a third TRR and take Block on the Catcher.... the extra RR would be a lot like a late-half Dodge or SH skill. Or I could take 3RR and go the Leap route, as the RRs make Leaping a little safer.

Counting on leap for offence is very dangerous as with elves rolling for 3's (even with reroll) will catch up with you sooner or later. On offence you should be aiming for 2+ re-rollable rolls.
I would only take leap for defence but this means you need a player that already has block or wrestle to make good use of it. Pro elves only have their blitzers for that but I think they are better off taking other skills (like dodge and guard).
I would take dodge, block or even wrestle over leap any time for a pro elf catcher. Don't be worried too much about chaos dwraves and dwarves' tackle. They still have plenty of players without it and the ones with tackle are slow and can't dodge easily so if you position right you can easily keep your dodge catcher away from them.

A: 2x Blitzer, 2x Catcher, 1x Thrower, 6x Lino, 2x RR, 1x Apoth
Lino w/Kick, Lino w/SS, Thrower w/SS (Thrower = lino who can take a duplicate skill in this context), Blitzer w/Tackle, Blitzer w/Leap, Catcher w/Leap.

my toughts (from my experience with wood elves on tourneys):
Side step with no dodge or block + av 7 = casualty waiting to happen.
2 * leap is very, very risky.
Frenzy is almost always preferable over tackle.
This team has too few "protection" skills (block, dodge, wrestle) IMO.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:52 pm

On the LOS, SS is as good a player-saver as is Dodge (prevents chain pushes), and has more game value as well. I can't use B/D/W to reduce my opponent's odds below 5/9 no matter what I do, and 4/9 x 4/9 or 4/9 x 25/36 (the chance of staying up for two blocks with Dodge only, assuming lead blocker has Block) is 16/81 or 100/324, neither of which is all that dramatically different from 25% (20.25/81 or 81/324), which is what one gets with SS. Conversely, no skill at all leaves you at 6.25% or 13%.