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 Post subject: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:45 pm 
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Hello all,

I'm planning on attending my first ever tournament - The Chaos Cup 2015 - and I'm in need of some advice. I'm torn between three possible teams - Dark Elves, Humans, and Necros - but this post is really about my Dark Elves, and the optimum tournament build for them. The tournament rules are 1 million for players, rerolls, etc., plus 150,000 for skills. Leader is not allowed, and it's 20,000 for skills normally available to the player, and 30,000 for skills that require a double to be rolled. Finally, no skill can be chosen more than four times.

I know the tournament is almost a year from now, but between work and family life, I don't have much free time, so I really need to optimize what time I have - hence the long lead-in to the tournament.

So here's my planned roster. You'll notice it doesn't contain any Witch Elves, as I really don't know how to use them, but if you feel the roster needs one, I'm open to advice on how to play them! The four blitzers are there because I like to play an aggressive game that constantly pushes forward. Blitzers - with their MA 7 and Block - are great for this.

4 Blitzers (one with Dodge and Sure Hands, one with Strip Ball, and one with Dodge).
1 Runner (with Pass and Dodge)
6 Linemen (one with Guard)
2 Rerolls

Basic roster comes to 1 million, and extra skills come to 150,000, so nothing is being left unspent. But is it going to work? I usually try to give one of my Blitzers Pass (when the dice allow it), and play him aggressively, either taking the ball and pushing up the field, or scrambling to pick it up if it's bouncing around and pass it up the field to put pressure on the defence, but I'm not doing that here. I also like to give my first lineman to skill up the Kick skill, but I'm not sure it's worth it in a tournament setting. I don't know my exact stats over the years, but I'd say I win about 60-70 percent of my games, and lose the rest. I don't often draw/tie, for some reason.

It's worth pointing out that I don't expect to win the tournament! I'd be delighted with a 50/50 win/loss ratio, and some good, fun games, so that's something that maybe needs to be considered too, but really I'd be happy to just get through the tournament without losing every game I play!

Thanks in advance, everyone!


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:23 pm 
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Zak Hazard wrote:
4 Blitzers (one with Dodge and Sure Hands, one with Strip Ball, and one with Dodge).
1 Runner (with Pass and Dodge)
6 Linemen (one with Guard)
2 Rerolls
Good luck at the Chaos Cup. I went this year and it is a nice tournament.

Firstly, if you take this roster you should move the Guard to the unskilled Blitzer. He is faster and less likely to be knocked down, making Guard more useful on him than on a Lineman.

This is the roster I would take :

3 Blitzers (2 with Dodge, one with Dodge+Guard)
1 Witch Elf (Block)
7 Linemen (2 with Wrestle)
2 Rerolls

Here you have four Blodgers (the greatest asset on tournament DEs) and your Guard is on a blodger so he will be standing more often and you can also move him where you want him. Witch Elves are my favourite player in the game, so I'd always include one. Ruling the sidelines is a delight. Wrestle on linemen is not a normal tourney pick, but I think it works well here. Guard should allow some two dice blocks with them. And if you are in trouble a one dice block with one is just as likely to turn over as a dodge, but has the added bonus of a chance to hurt the opposing player! This is not true of Block as a 'Both Down' result ends in a stand off and you can be blocked back next turn (=bad). Wrestle also results in more prone players, which is good for elves. Fewer standing players = more space = better for the fast, agile team.

A general principle here is that you are better off spreading your skills between players. The first Improvement gives the most drastic improvement in performance. The exception here being Guard, as the value of Dodge & Guard benefit each other.

An alternative would be to drop one of the Wrestle linemen for Side Step on the Witch Elf. She can surf people at will without fear of being push off the sidelines herself. Then the combination of either Blodge+Side Step or, if she is knocked down, Jump Up+Side Step is frightening if used well. However, this requires slightly more advanced play to be used effectively.

Pass is luxury skill for me, I'd never be taking that to a tournament. In Europe we affectionately call the Range Ruler a 'Lose-o-meter' for a reason. Block/Dodge/Wrestle/Guard can be used every turn in almost every situation. Pass might be used once per game. If I am playing right, it will be used never per game. :wink: Strip Ball again is okay, but without Dodge will probably not be in the place you need it to be on the one turn that it might be of use. Another luxury.

If you don't like the Witch Elf option then I would plump for a variation on your original roster :

4 Blitzers (2 with Dodge, one with Dodge+Guard)
1 Runner (Dodge)
6 Linemen (2 with Wrestle)
2 Rerolls

One extra MA7 player, and the Dump Off option if you face Wood Elves. Still a very reasonable roster.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:53 pm 
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Thanks for the in-depth reply, Joemanji.

I get your point about Pass - it makes a lot of sense in the context of "how often will the skill be used"? It's a hangover from a couple of leagues I played in where I used to pass A LOT. It's not very reliable, though, you're right, and running with the ball makes more sense.

I like the idea of the Block/Side Step Witch Elf - using her to control the sidelines makes a lot of sense, and is clearly the key to using her effectively. I think I might play some practice games and see if I can get some mileage from it. It's the one player on the Dark Elf team that has never clicked with me, strangely - even the Runner seems to play better for me.

Guard on the Blitzer also makes a lot of sense, for the reasons you outlined. Since I love my Dark Elf blitzers, it's a build I'd like just for that reason alone. Again, some practice games with this build are in order (the three blodging blitzers and the blodging Witch Elf). I do like the look of the final list you suggest, with the four blitzers, so that one probably needs some practice games too.

I have to say, even though it's ten months away, I'm looking forward to the Chaos Cup - did you travel all the way from London to go to it? I live about a twelve-hour drive from Chicago, so will probably just drive up. I'm sorry that I didn't get into the tournament scene back in Europe, where I grew up, but there's lots of Blood Bowl happening in North America too, so I plan to make the most of it.

Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:43 pm 
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Joe - what are your views on Wrestle on a Witch Elf in tourneys? I find it works well in leagues. And what about Wrestle+Jugs (or Block+Jugs) on the Witch as the doubles option in this tourney?

All the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:08 pm 
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Joe - I have a related question. AusBowl State Champs 3 is coming up, a team of 6 tourney, TV 119 (well, TV 120 minus 1 FF), 6 normal skills, 1 Star allowed. I am a DE rookie in tourneys, the following rosters struck me as obvious at first glance:

2 Witches with Wrestle
4 Blitzers with Dodge
6 Linos
3 Re-rolls

and

2 Witches with Wrestle
4 Blitzers (2 with Dodge, 2 with nothing)
2 Runners with Dodge
3 Re-rolls
Apoth

Likelihood of meeting WEs is quite high. Do you like either of these rosters? Both have their attractions, the first has 6 Blodgers/Wrodgers, the second has raw speed and Dump Off. but at the cost of AV.

All the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:45 pm 
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I like the first roster, Smeborg, but the two Runners with Dodge in the second Roster are nice too. Dodge can help them get to where they want to go. Good luck at the tournament, and let us know which roster you take and how it works out for you - I might borrow some of the insights you gain for my own Chaos Cup roster!


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Smeborg wrote:
Joe - what are your views on Wrestle on a Witch Elf in tourneys? I find it works well in leagues. And what about Wrestle+Jugs (or Block+Jugs) on the Witch as the doubles option in this tourney?
Hi,

Yep, Wrestle is great on Witch Elves. However, my roster included two linemen with Wrestle so another might be overkill. I would wanted her to be on her feet often. Also, Wrestle doesn't work so well with Side Step as she is less likely to be on her feet.

Smeborg wrote:
2 Witches with Wrestle
4 Blitzers with Dodge
6 Linos
3 Re-rolls

and

2 Witches with Wrestle
4 Blitzers (2 with Dodge, 2 with nothing)
2 Runners with Dodge
3 Re-rolls
Apoth
I usually take one Block Witch, one Wrestle. It is nice to have one that can hurt people, and they are foul targets so protecting two can be problematic.

I'd always take the Apo over the 12th man in tournaments. 75% of an extra skilled player (or better if you use it wisely) > an extra lineman. Although actually both would be magic. I tried to find a way to fit in a 12th man and the apo, but that means dropping a positional to fit in the Runner for Leader.

I might go :

2 Witches (one Block, one Wrestle)
4 Blitzers (four Dodge)
1 Runner
4 Linemen
3 Re-rolls
Apoth
Coach
1 FF (if mandated).

If you take two Runners then you only need to lose one lino before one is going on the LoS. Skills are better value on the Blitzers / Witches anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:52 pm 
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I had wondered about taking an apothecary in a tournament - is it worth taking one instead of a re-roll, do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:05 pm 
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Not with the Chaos Cup's budget. Especially because Leader is banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:05 pm 
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Good point about the budget, Gaixo - it's tough to fit in the essentials with 1 million, let alone the "it would be nice to have" things! I think I'm pretty happy to playtest the four blitzers and one runner build for a while, and see how it plays, although I know I need to practice my witch elf plays too.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:30 pm 
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Zak Hazard wrote:
I had wondered about taking an apothecary in a tournament - is it worth taking one instead of a re-roll, do you think?
Zak - I often take an Apoth in tourneys when I am playing a team with Linos that cost more than 50,000. Here are 2 examples at TV110:

Chaos
---------
Minotard
3 Warriors
8 Beastmen
2 Re-rolls
Apoth

Slann
--------
4 Catchers
8 Linos
5 Re-rolls
Apoth

Both rosters have proved highly successful. The point of an Apoth is that it is cheaper than a Lino; the 1 or 2 points of TV saved can make all the difference to a viable roster. As Joe points out above, an Apoth has a 75% chance of bringing back a skilled player who is a CAS (or 100% of bringing back a Lino who is merely BH). 75% of a Chaos Warrior or DE Blitzer with a skill is 90,000 - nearly double the cost of an Apoth.

Note, however, that this Apoth theory tends to break down if you cop several KOs, but no CAS (when a Lino would of course be better). Situations where you use the Apoth to recover from KO on the pitch are rare in my experience.

Thus the Apoth is not being used instead of a Re-roll, but as a poor man's substitute for a Lino. My experience of DE teams suggests that 2 Re-rolls is not enough, you need 3 (or 2 plus Leader). A few teams can manage with 2 Re-rolls, depending on format.

Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:40 pm 
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That does help, Smeborg, thank you. For the Chaos Cup, I'm having trouble building a roster that gives me some positional players AND the rerolls. Two rerolls is all I've managed so far, but if I want three, it means losing a Blitzer, which is a big loss. I always feel that the blitzers are the real backbone of a Dark Elf team (at least in league play).


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:28 pm 
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This is just a quirk of the Chaos Cup rule set I am afraid. 2RR is the best you are gonna do, just going to have to suck it up. Plenty of good DE coaches only take 2RR (and no Leader) at TV110 anyway, so it's not the end of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Two rerolls it is, then. I'm going to practice with the four blitzers and one runner build, so once I have some data, I'll post in this thread as I know I'll need advice as the testing phase goes on. However, I'm also interested in trying a Necromantic team, so I'll start a separate thread on that in the next few weeks. Thanks, everyone, for all the excellent advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elves for Chaos Cup 2015
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:15 pm 
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To clarify, I agree that you can only manage 2RR for the Chaos Cup.

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