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 Post subject: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:46 am 
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It seems that the vast majority of Dark Elf teams that I see at tournaments look something like this:

(mix of 5-6 Blitzers/Witch Elves, mostly with Blodge/Wrodge, with some Tackle or Guard thrown in depending on the tourney rules)
One Runner with Leader
(11 players total)
2 Rerolls
No apothecary.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, because most of the coaches that I see fielding this roster are a lot better than I am (not really saying much), and end up placing higher than me. That said, I've had decent success against this roster by going after that runner. He's the weakest player on the team, no defensive skills at all, AV 7 ... it just seems like a lot of eggs to put in a very fragile basket. If I can take out that runner early (and he's by far the easiest guy on the team to take out), the Dark Elf coach is down to 10 players for the rest of the game, loses the leader reroll, and the entire team becomes less effective.

One time I fouled a Leader Runner out of the game early in the first half, before he'd even used the Leader reroll. My Khemri skeleton got caught (boxcars on the injury roll), but I was obviously happy to make that trade. Judging by my opponent's face at the time, he definitely wasn't. The only "downside" was that my opponent started using a Blitzer to carry the ball, who was harder to knock down. But the fact that the Blitzer was by far the better ball carrier made me question the choice of a Runner Leader even more!

Disclaimer: I haven't played Dark Elves in a tournament, only in a league. And I've always taken Dodge on them as the first skill and never even thought about Leader. It just makes him so much better as a ball carrier, improves his mobility, keeps him on his feet some of the time. And if I ever use a Dodge reroll when I would have used a team reroll otherwise (a common situation with a ball carrier), Dodge was just as good as Leader for that half.

So I guess I'm asking more experienced Dark Elf coaches to explain what I'm missing? Why is a Runner with Leader better than, say, a runner with Dodge? Or an extra lineman and 20k more in the bank and another valuable skill to give to someone else? I plan on bringing Dark Elves to a tournament for the first time later this year - with Dodge on a Runner. I'd love to hear some feedback from someone who's already made that decision :-D


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:35 pm 
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1) Depending on your choice in the blitzer/witchelf-combo you can afford an apothecary as a Dark Elf
2) Dark Elfs have three major problems: 1) rolling 1 on dodge rolls, 2) rolling 1 on catch rolls, 3) rolling both down/skull combos on lineman-blocks --- those in combination with only two rerolls can singlehandedly kill your match and leader is the only available mitigation
3) If somebody goes after my runner, he is not going after my witch elf
4) If I let somebody block and foul my runner early in the game, I hope I had some good strategic reason for that

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:03 am 
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3) If somebody goes after my runner, he is not going after my witch elf


This...this right here. My league is super nice...and no one fouls usually...until a witch elf is on the board. Then...well...god help her.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:57 am 
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If you don't want Leader, there's no real reason to take the runner. Is Dump-Off and +1 MA worth the extra cost and loss of AV? Only if you're basing your offensive strategy around Dump-Off, which is its own bad idea. (Maybe someone has had luck with a 2 runner/NoS list, but I've never seen one work.)

What are the tournament rules like? A skill package? Skills bought with roster money? A separate skill fund?

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:56 pm 
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At skijunkie time, i had à pro elfes team build around 2 catchers having both dump off. It was very efficient actually as one of them had pass and the other pro.
As soon as one of them died , almost all benifit of the remaining dump off disappers...

So in league : fun and good combo could be done around dump off : but it would cost many skill...
But in regular tourney formats...

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:36 pm 
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I think the simple boring answer is that lets you pack in as many witches/blitsers/rerolls as you can. The runner is just a reroll-carrier. He can in some cases serve as a ballpicker with some strip ball protection and leave your blitzers and witch elves to paving the way, but otherwise more then othen his av 7 just makes him a liabilaty compared to a lineman. He is not worthy of a skillchoice like dodge, he shouldn't be blocked or dodge so often that it's preferable to a reroll that can save a critical turnover.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:10 pm 
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babass wrote:
At skijunkie time, i had à pro elfes team build around 2 catchers having both dump off. It was very efficient actually as one of them had pass and the other pro.
As soon as one of them died , almost all benifit of the remaining dump off disappers...

So in league : fun and good combo could be done around dump off : but it would cost many skill...
But in regular tourney formats...


I don't see why you'd need 2 catchers with dump off. Just punch a hole and run a DO guy holding the ball through with 1 or more other catchers. As they have NoS and Catch then they will receive an accurate pass on a 2+ with re-roll (assuming no disturbing presence or rain). Then the receiver runs in a TD the next turn assuming he's not been tied up or blocked too effectively.

Tough to stop but then scoring with elfs is not that hard. I'm not convinced it is worth the skills as it does rely on players getting hit and defence is the area where elfs can find life tough.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:10 pm 
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Thank you all for your answers!

This was actually the most helpful answer for me:
adhansa wrote:
I think the simple boring answer is that lets you pack in as many witches/blitsers/rerolls as you can. The runner is just a reroll-carrier. He can in some cases serve as a ballpicker with some strip ball protection and leave your blitzers and witch elves to paving the way, but otherwise more then othen his av 7 just makes him a liabilaty compared to a lineman. He is not worthy of a skillchoice like dodge, he shouldn't be blocked or dodge so often that it's preferable to a reroll that can save a critical turnover.


I'd always thought of runners as natural ball carriers, because that's how I use them in league play (where my runner has Dodge, Block, Sidestep, and only very rarely uses Dump Off). On defense he's essentially a fifth blitzer, the AV7 sucks but isn't that big of a deal. So my thought was that a ball carrier with AV7 and no "stay standing" skills is just silly.

But Tournaments are a totally different game - perhaps even more so for Dark Elves. And a runner plus a skill pick is cheaper than a lineman and a reroll. So he's a fast, weak lineman who I need to protect. And then once that leader reroll gets used in the second half, he's just as expendable as anyone else.
So the problem was in my head, thinking of the Leader Runner as the ball carrier and objecting that he has no useful skills at all for ball carrying.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:35 pm 
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spubbbba wrote:
babass wrote:
At skijunkie time, i had à pro elfes team build around 2 catchers having both dump off. It was very efficient actually as one of them had pass and the other pro.
As soon as one of them died , almost all benifit of the remaining dump off disappers...

So in league : fun and good combo could be done around dump off : but it would cost many skill...
But in regular tourney formats...


I don't see why you'd need 2 catchers with dump off. Just punch a hole and run a DO guy holding the ball through with 1 or more other catchers. As they have NoS and Catch then they will receive an accurate pass on a 2+ with re-roll (assuming no disturbing presence or rain). Then the receiver runs in a TD the next turn assuming he's not been tied up or blocked too effectively.

Tough to stop but then scoring with elfs is not that hard. I'm not convinced it is worth the skills as it does rely on players getting hit and defence is the area where elfs can find life tough.

The one having PASS were Great.
Don't Forget we could not use team or leader reroll during opponent turn... dump off is à skill use during opponent turn...

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:47 am 
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De are the most expensive team. If I could field 4 blitzers 2 witches and have 3 rerolls I would not consider the runner. But as I normally can't in a tourni, 80k guy with a normal skill gives me +40k of witches, blitzers to my squad.

As a rr caddy he is fine. If I win the toss I want the ball. I never want to defend vs bash first. So this situation I can shield him with the ball ideally and not even notice his defficant av. He could see the second half also by this method

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:11 pm 
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I think the dodge runner is the best option.

Regardless of leader/dodge the runner is the reason DE > WE in tournament play. Thats reason enough to have the runner in the first place.

When you have him he needs to be protected and with dodge he is actually a good ball carrier freeing up you all important blitzers to do other stuff. Dump of is underrated btw. Dump of typically has effect even when you don't use it so its sometimes hard to notice the effects - like with strip ball and break tackle.

All your points are valid and you should go for the dodge runner.

You do absolutely not want an AV 7 player without dodge being blitzed - even after using the leader skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:22 am 
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Tripleskull wrote:
Regardless of leader/dodge the runner is the reason DE > WE in tournament play. Thats reason enough to have the runner in the first place.


I thought it was because of 4 blitzers and 2 witchelfs..?


Actually, I think WE > DE, looking at NAF-rankings. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:06 am 
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JaM wrote:
Tripleskull wrote:
Regardless of leader/dodge the runner is the reason DE > WE in tournament play. Thats reason enough to have the runner in the first place.


I thought it was because of 4 blitzers and 2 witchelfs..?


Actually, I think WE > DE, looking at NAF-rankings. :)

And What is the Win ratio in the games between WE and DE?

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:20 am 
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babass wrote:
JaM wrote:
Tripleskull wrote:
Regardless of leader/dodge the runner is the reason DE > WE in tournament play. Thats reason enough to have the runner in the first place.


I thought it was because of 4 blitzers and 2 witchelfs..?


Actually, I think WE > DE, looking at NAF-rankings. :)

And What is the Win ratio in the games between WE and DE?


in the 2013-14 data, Wood Elves won at a 53% clip. Wood Elves and Undead are the highest ranked races, Dark Elves not far off though.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Elf Runner with Leader
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:12 am 
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JaM wrote:
Tripleskull wrote:
Regardless of leader/dodge the runner is the reason DE > WE in tournament play. Thats reason enough to have the runner in the first place.


I thought it was because of 4 blitzers and 2 witchelfs..?


Actually, I think WE > DE, looking at NAF-rankings. :)


I was talking about the specific match up DEs vs WEs.

WEs and undead are a clear top two in the usual tournament formats. But I consider DEs to be the worst matchup for WEs.


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