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 Post subject: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:30 pm 
Super Star
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So, I'm going to Brassbowl this year, and since this is a heavily tiered tournament, I'm going with Chaos as my team. I've played quite a lot of Chaos in Leagues, but never before at a Tournament, and so I'm asking for a little bit of advice.

From the announcment post on this forum:

"The rules for this year are:
TV 1 150 000 gcs
star players allowed
No wizards, except halfling masterchef at 100k
Goblin bribes at 50k (max 3)

Tier 1: (4 spps) Amazon, Chaos dwarf, Dark Elf, Dwarf, Lizardmen, Norse, Orc, Skaven, Undead, Wood Elf

Tier 2: (7 spps): High Elf, Elf, Human, Necromantic

Tier 3: (9 spps) Nurgle, Slann, Vampire, Underworld, Khemri, Chaos Pact, Chaos

Tier 4: (11 spps) Goblins, Halflings, Ogres

1 spp: skill on a player
3 spps: 2 skills on same player
4 spps: 1 double & 1 regular skill on different players.
4 spps: 1 double on a Big Guy.

A player can't get two skills unless the second option (3 spps) is used.

All skills must be allocated on Saturday before the draw for the first match is known.
No extra skills are given on Sunday."

Team composition is fairly simple, I think:

1 Minotaur: 1 x 150k = 150k
4 Chaos Warriors: 4x 100k =400k
6 Beastmen: 6 x 60k = 360k
3 Rerolls: 3 x 60k =180k
1 Apothecary: 1 x 50k = 50k
1 Fan Factor: 1 x 10k =10k

Total: 1150k

The only alternative I see is to exchange the Apo + FF for an extra Beastman, but as the Apo can bring back a better player, I prefer it over the 12th man. I don't think there are any Starplayers worth taking at this starting TV

Skills are a little trickier. 9 Skill Points is a lot, and could potentially lead to all but 2 players having a skill, but the option to give a player 2 skills for 3 SP is too good to be missed out on IMO. doubles are too expensive, and not really needed on a Chaos team anyway.

I see 2 basic patterns; cautious and agressive.

Cautious:

Claw on the Mino, Block on all 4 Chaos Warriors, Sure Hands on a Beastman, Wrestle on a Beastman.

This gives the team one good killer, 4 reliable hitters, one sacker and a ballcarrier.

The last 2 SP could go to:
- Block on the SH Beastman, for an even better ballcarrier.
- Tackle/Two Heads on the Wrestle Beastman, for a better sacker.
- Block on two other Beastman, for even more reliability.
- Mighty Blow on a Beastman and Tackle on another Beastman, for additional killer and sacker options.
- Piling On on the Minotaur, for the best killer possible.

Agressive:

Claw on the Minotaur, Claw and Mighty Blow on 2 Chaos Warriors.

This gives the team 3 good killers.

The last 2 SP could go to:
- Piling On on the Minotaur, for the best killer possible.
- Mighty Blow on the other 2 Chaos Warriors, for more killers.
- Sure hands on a Beastman and Wrestle on another, for a sacker and a ballcarrier.

Of course there are other options, but these indicate what I think are the basic directions the team could go.

So, what do you think? What (if anything) have I missed, and what would you do?


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:00 pm 
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Have you considered Guard spam on the Chaos Warriors?
It makes for a different approach to defence then giving them Block would, I will agree. Then again, your line of scrimmage will be hard to tackle, and the most speed or blitzing comes from the Beastmen (and okay, the Minotaur) anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:13 pm 
Emerging Star
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My chaos tournament experience leads me to highly recommend as much block as possible with wrestle thrown in for the beastmen.

I'd probably go with your original plan, spending the last two points on block for the sure hands beast.

Alternatively, swap the mino for a couple of beasts (plus change) and give another beast wrestle, for 12 men, apo and more reliability.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:33 pm 
Super Star
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@ Vinz: I've briefly considered it, but I prefer the reliability of Block. Also, the team has enough Strength to not really need Guard all that much, and on defense I wouldn't put the CW's on the LOS anyway, as, even if they're not going to be hit, they'll be stuck there and the rest of the defense will be weakened.

@ Mawph: That's what I figured; the 2nd option is is more a 'forget the ball, casualties all the way!' kinda team, which could be fun but is not really my thing. I like the Mino too much to give him up, though reliability is a good thing. Have to think about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:05 am 
Emerging Star
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If you're a member of the NAF, you can track my tournament progress with Chaos :)

It starts horribly (tournament with the Mino and guard on a couple of the warriors)
Gets a little better (still with the mino, but taking more block)
Goes well (no mino, loads of block and wrestle)

The last/best one was thrudbowl, where I went with skills on beastmen, over mino with claw (skills were purchased with GC) and my leaning and learning as I went through was to go conservative and just get nice solid base skills and roll with the high strength and slow grind.

With the rules set you're playing under, I'd be tempted to go with the mino for the player removal power, but could well see myself going conservative again with a 12 player/apo build with block, wrestle and a block/surehands beastman for the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:32 pm 
Super Star
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on another forum (in french sorry) i suggested this roster for the Brassbowl :
Quote:
Mino CLAW
4 Warriors BLOCK BLOCK BLOCKorGUARD GUARD
7 Beastmen SUREHANDS WRESTLE BLOCK GUARD
3 RR

Chaos with 9 skills would be great!

and if you do trust a lot your minotard, you could even stack skills on him (but i do prefer my 1st roster)
Quote:
Mino CLAW+JUGGERNAUT
4 Warriors BLOCK BLOCK GUARD GUARD
7 Beastmen SUREHANDS WRESTLE
3 RR


in both case, with so many skills possible, CLAW is a must-have IF you want to play with the minotard.

Quote:
Have you considered Guard spam on the Chaos Warriors?

Imo: spam on block is better for warrior.
but i think this roster need at least 2 guards : 1 strong (on a warrior) and 1 mobile (on a beastmen).


If you don't like Mino, i would consider Lewdgrip... something like this
Quote:
4 WARRIOR BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK BLOCKorGUARD
7 Beastmen WRESTLE WRESTLE GUARD GUARD BLOCKorGUARDorFRENZY
+ the starplayer with surehands
3 RR

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:00 pm 
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I wouldnt skill the mino. But IF you do, give him block.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:21 pm 
Emerging Star
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To expand a little further, the rules at thrud allow you to take 6 skilled chaos players, max 2 skills each (one double), but no repeated skill combos.

Given this, I did also take a Mighty Blow/Claw warrior who wasn't worth the skill points. You find yourself taking the less risky stuff first due to the lack of block. If you went with the plan of no block on the team, everything is risky, so it might come back into play ;)

Regarding Guard, a prevalence of ST4, an ability to blitz at ST4 with one beastman a turn and a lack of other races being able to take a significant level of guard (due to the tiering of the races) means you shouldn't miss guard at all if you don't take it. If you were in a 'standard' 6 additional skills environment such as the NAF Champs, you might run into a guard heavy dwarf team. Given the tiering however, no such dwarf team should pose you significant issues here if you have 5 players with block who can make ST4 blocks/blitzes a turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:32 pm 
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mawph wrote:
My chaos tournament experience leads me to highly recommend as much block as possible with wrestle thrown in for the beastmen.

I'd probably go with your original plan, spending the last two points on block for the sure hands beast.

Alternatively, swap the mino for a couple of beasts (plus change) and give another beast wrestle, for 12 men, apo and more reliability.


If you drop the mino there is a very powerful starplayer available, too: Lewdgrip

Not sure though whether the rules demand to have 11 non-star players first.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:46 pm 
Super Star
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@ Mawph: I'm a Naf member; I may look into your journey with Chaos. I too prefer Block over Guard and as you said, I don't think I need it with enough Block.

@ JaM: A double on the Mino would cost me 4 out of 9 Skill points, which is too many. Claw MB is too strong not to get.

@ Babass & RoterSternHochdahl: I don't see what Lewdgrip is going to bring me except Sure Hands, which I can get on a Beast anyway. Passing is too unreliable to be worth it, and Tentacles with S3 is pointless. Also, he's a Loner, so blocking and dodging with him will be an issue. Also I'm not sure whether or not 11 normal players are required before taking starplayers; may have to contact Dries about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:41 am 
Super Star
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Dr. Von Richten wrote:
@ Babass & RoterSternHochdahl: I don't see what Lewdgrip is going to bring me except Sure Hands, which I can get on a Beast anyway. Passing is too unreliable to be worth it, and Tentacles with S3 is pointless. Also, he's a Loner, so blocking and dodging with him will be an issue. Also I'm not sure whether or not 11 normal players are required before taking starplayers; may have to contact Dries about that.

with this TV (115), this starplayer is your 12th men.
and i suggest him, only if you don't like the Mino (same cost), but as i said, i do prefer the mino :)
his only benifit is to allow you give another skill as surehands on a beastman. that's all. Chaos is a roster that needs skills, and hiring a starplayer is a another way to have skills

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:10 pm 
Emerging Star
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babass wrote:
Dr. Von Richten wrote:
@ Babass & RoterSternHochdahl: I don't see what Lewdgrip is going to bring me except Sure Hands, which I can get on a Beast anyway. Passing is too unreliable to be worth it, and Tentacles with S3 is pointless. Also, he's a Loner, so blocking and dodging with him will be an issue. Also I'm not sure whether or not 11 normal players are required before taking starplayers; may have to contact Dries about that.

with this TV (115), this starplayer is your 12th men.
and i suggest him, only if you don't like the Mino (same cost), but as i said, i do prefer the mino :)
his only benifit is to allow you give another skill as surehands on a beastman. that's all. Chaos is a roster that needs skills, and hiring a starplayer is a another way to have skills

I've messed around with and without lewdgrip with Chaos Pact around this TV. The thing I've always found was you either end up getting a strip ball player attacking your block ball carrier or a block player attacking lewdgrip.
As such there, I'd only go with him if you wanted to save a skill point :) My conclusion is that block/surehands is the best way to go as you are cutting down potential opportunities for your opponent to get the ball away from your ballcarrier.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:05 pm 
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mawph wrote:
babass wrote:
Dr. Von Richten wrote:
@ Babass & RoterSternHochdahl: I don't see what Lewdgrip is going to bring me except Sure Hands, which I can get on a Beast anyway. Passing is too unreliable to be worth it, and Tentacles with S3 is pointless. Also, he's a Loner, so blocking and dodging with him will be an issue. Also I'm not sure whether or not 11 normal players are required before taking starplayers; may have to contact Dries about that.

with this TV (115), this starplayer is your 12th men.
and i suggest him, only if you don't like the Mino (same cost), but as i said, i do prefer the mino :)
his only benifit is to allow you give another skill as surehands on a beastman. that's all. Chaos is a roster that needs skills, and hiring a starplayer is a another way to have skills

I've messed around with and without lewdgrip with Chaos Pact around this TV. The thing I've always found was you either end up getting a strip ball player attacking your block ball carrier or a block player attacking lewdgrip.
As such there, I'd only go with him if you wanted to save a skill point :) My conclusion is that block/surehands is the best way to go as you are cutting down potential opportunities for your opponent to get the ball away from your ballcarrier.


I would go with the Mino any time but if you don't I think that Lewdgrip is more than just a valid option. Chaos with 9 Skills is a super power. On top of this, the typical strip baller races do not come very strong in this tourney with merely 4 Skills. I think, it is well worth dropping Sure hands for something else here.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:32 pm 
Super Star
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Quote:
On top of this, the typical strip baller races do not come very strong in this tourney with merely 4 Skills.

For this format, the typical strip ball (/wrestle) races would be slann! with 9 skills (and 4 RR) it should be fun :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos for Brassbowl
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:02 pm 
Super Star
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@ all who wrote about Lewdgrip: I like the Mino, and as mr. Whiparm doesn't offer anything but Sure Hands, I will ignore him and probably give Block ti the Sure Hands player with thos last 2 Skill Points


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