Swiss or Random

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:03 am

Lost spirit is not a myth...doesnt mean that another nice spirit cant be !

The spirit is different along the years cos it is made of people...and those are changing along the time.

nothing wrong, nothing good, just changes.

Pipey · Post by **Pipey** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:52 am

This debate is broadening a little beyond swiss vs. random.

My perspective on EB (having first took part in 2006 and then becoming England captain in 2008 and now 2009) is that there is as much spirit and fun now as there was when I first got involved, if not more. I agree with Longshot, maybe it's changed a little but not for the worse.

I don't think the swiss/random question is really a central issue, just a side matter not as important as some are suggesting.

I also agree with what Yavatol said. The fact that EB is so exclusive is regrettable. Speaking from the English perspective, there could be more transparency about selection but at the moment the process is indeed a little 'vague' and not conducted openly enough. In England we have brought in new faces but we could do more to get everyone involved (and plan to).

IMO the NAF World Cup did far more to bring together different parts of the community/different nations than Eurobowl has done - because it was open to all, irrespective of how good you are at BB or any other factor.

Gorbad · Post by **Gorbad** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:57 pm

The main idea to make it teams of 'X' was to prevent an invasion of people from one country, and only 1 or 2 from another.

So let's take an example: We have a venue that fits 128 people (and don;t forget acoomodation!), and now 100 Frenchmen wish to play, 3 Dutchmen, 84 English, 17 Italians, 12 Belgians, 9 Danes, 14 Germans, 20 Spaniards etc, etc.

Who will you disappoint and why?

Hangus · Post by **Hangus** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:11 pm

I went for the first time last year, had a great time and made some new friends. I played to win but like a lot of people if I lost is was not a big deal.

The fact it is called 'eurobowl' and has a limit on it is going make it competative to play for your country and it is probably that geeks like us will get that chance.

To me random/random may add a more friendly element to it but IMO it is the same rule change as giving more points for TDs than cas. It will favour some more than others.

If people want something similar then get some mates and go to Rugbowl or Flamebowl (or the Spanish one I forgot the name of). Same principles just without the Euro tag.

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:46 pm

Gorbad wrote:The main idea to make it teams of 'X' was to prevent an invasion of people from one country, and only 1 or 2 from another.

So let's take an example: We have a venue that fits 128 people (and don;t forget acoomodation!), and now 100 Frenchmen wish to play, 3 Dutchmen, 84 English, 17 Italians, 12 Belgians, 9 Danes, 14 Germans, 20 Spaniards etc, etc.

Who will you disappoint and why?

Totally hypothetical, but I would start looking for a bigger accomodation first.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:05 pm

I don't know ... i don't think the "spirit" depends on random/random or swiss/swiss.

For country matchups i don't mind, random or swiss. Swiss does not work that well in a smaller samples anyway. Plus i always liked the moment of tension when you called all the players together to announce next round draw, so from this view, i'd prefer random.

For match determination i like the fixed table players method. You have a team captain, he plays table one vs. the other captain. Others are assigned a table to play the whole tournament. The rest is fun, putting the second "best" player in last table, all tactics they might work or not

More fun than swiss/pure random.

For me, the "sprirt" starts earlier, in forming a team, ideally in traveling together, sharing accomodation, meeting the other teams.

Gorbad · Post by **Gorbad** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:08 am

Yavatol wrote:
Gorbad wrote:The main idea to make it teams of 'X' was to prevent an invasion of people from one country, and only 1 or 2 from another.

So let's take an example: We have a venue that fits 128 people (and don;t forget acoomodation!), and now 100 Frenchmen wish to play, 3 Dutchmen, 84 English, 17 Italians, 12 Belgians, 9 Danes, 14 Germans, 20 Spaniards etc, etc.

Who will you disappoint and why?
Totally hypothetical, but I would start looking for a bigger accomodation first.

When? A year in advance when you don't know who is coming? Or like now, 2 months in advance when you still are not completely sure how many players will be there?

You know how hard it is to get a proper venue, and how much it can cost if you then only get 50% of the players you expected.

I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but pie-in-the-sky 'let's get a bigger venue and invite everyone' ideas are hardly realistic.

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:53 pm

Tournaments do not double in size over night. In most cases you can estimate in what order the number of attendees is going to be like. That should give you enough time to find a suitable venue. That is not unrealistic, that is common practice in many events, and I have experience in organising things far larger and far more uncertain than the Eurobowl. Sometimes this means having a backup plan ready, sometimes that is not possible. If you should exceed the number of players you can host first-come first serve based approach is always better than hand-picking an arbitrary set. Especially when you call the event Eurobowl, which has a distinct representative ring to it.
Costs are the most difficult aspect of this sort of planning, especially when fewer show up than expected. You probably need a party involved that is consistent over the years, has some sort of financial buffer and that is not trying to live of the possible gains. We happen to have a very suitable club for this: the NAF.

Marco Gianni · Post by **Marco Gianni** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:05 pm

It's not the topic subject but just to complete the 2 last posts :

We (tornies org) have talked about the eurobowl organization here in France, in the eventuality of a victory this year of course, and our Captain Nicodaz has suggested to organize a side event, open to any players, beside the eurobowl tournament that stays a "one team per nation" tournament.

That's a way to bring more coaches in the party.

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:15 pm

They tried that before when the Eurobowl was in the UK, but only a few people actually turned up (two to be exact). Apparently not to many people are keen on participating in something that is presented / percieved as a second grade event. Or it might be an indication that not that many extra people would join if you create a more open format, disproving Gorbad's concerns.

Marco Gianni · Post by **Marco Gianni** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:27 pm

Times change... I don't know how it's going in the UK but here in France the number of Bloodbowl players is growing each month. Maybe thanks to the video game, maybe thanks to the active french bloodbowler community, I can't really say... Anyway, I'm sure that the players are ready to come to such an event, even if it's not for playing in a main event, but just to see it, play some games beside and participate to a big fiesta.

For instance the Rugbowl tournament has increased from 60 players to 144 players in 2 years. And I know that everybody has not been able to come this year so the potential is there, definitly.

After all, that depends on what we're looking for, but bringing a lot of people to a tournament is not really a problem.

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:30 pm

But rugbowl is only a single event, right? That's a huge difference.

Marco Gianni · Post by **Marco Gianni** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:47 pm

no, Rugbowl is a team tournament (6 players, 18 teams last year, 24 teams this year)

EDIT : this year we had 5 spanish teams (30 players coming from Barcelona, Valencia, Bilbao...) and & italian team (from Bologna, Modena and Roma... what a long trip

Anyway, during the Lutèce bowl (team tournament too, 5 coachs/team) another tournament took place in Rennes (west of France) and the number of players this week end (in the two tornies) was 150 !

If you look in Spain the situation is the same : big tournaments, big popularity of the teams tornies, more and more players, more and more tournaments... In Italy too...

Bloodbowl is not dead !!

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:54 pm

What I meant is there is only the main event. No side tournament or anything.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:09 pm

Yes.

But what could be an idea, is organise EB close to a regular tournament.
As this, there is not such 'second level' tournament idea in players mind.

Which would mean in some cases, that dates of EB should be changed a little bit to be the same week-end of the other tourny.

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Swiss or Random

Would you prefer Swiss or Random