Swiss or Random

[Podfrey]

Quick history lesson for the newbies among us?

The idea of Eurobowl was a get together weekend for all the coaches who travelled to different European tournaments. At the end of the weekend some games would have been played and one nation gets to call itself "Eurobowl Champions" for the next 12 months. Because taking part was more important than winning, all matchups were random.

In 2004 (Germany) it was Random/Random

In 2005 (England) it was Random/Random. I also wrote a "Eurobowl" tournament system to track results, do the random draws, etc.

In 2006 (Italy) it was Random/Random. The "Eurobowl" system I wrote was updated and used.

In 2007 there was the NAF World Cup

In 2008 (Spain) 6 months before the event I asked Spain if they wanted the "Eurobowl" system updating and was told no. When I landed in Spain I was asked where the software was Complete disaster was averted at the last minute and they used a normal tournament piece of software (I think Score!), hence why it was Swiss/Swiss

With the NAF World Cup being ultra competitive, suddenly everyone started thinking that Eurobowl was meant to be the same - it never was. Also some countries began choosing their players purely on ability and with no regard as to whether they've played outside their own country or not.

Keeping it Random/Random will hopefully stop any team "powering up" and going there with the sole aim of winning it; as the random draw system removes any claim by the winning team of being "statistically the best". This means that we can all get together and enjoy the reason we're there - to game and see friends - knowing that we always have the come back of "yeah, well you never played anyone good " if the winning country get too big for their boots!

Moving to Swiss/Swiss makes winning the EB as the prime objective. (don't we have enough tournaments in the rest of the year that have this approach??)

[Valen]

The idea of Eurobowl was a get together weekend for all the coaches who travelled to different European tournaments. At the end of the weekend some games would have been played and one nation gets to call itself "Eurobowl Champions" for the next 12 months. Because taking part was more important than winning, all matchups were random.

This sums it up for me completley, and is why swiss/swiss imo is completley against the concept of Eurobowl

[Darkson]

Perhaps you should follow UEFAs lead, and have a competion for the "good" players (the EuroBowl). and a cup for the also-rans (the EuropaBowl), with a rule that if you play in one, you can't play in the other in the same year.



Damn, now that's got me thinking. 3 or 4 man teams, multiple team allowed from each country....
If only I had the time and money.

[tiamo69]

as a newbie, that certainly makes sense to me Valen / Lucifer.

to me taking part & enjoying myself is more important to me than winning a tourney...
as long as i don't get brushed (lose 0-6 etc) i'm happy.
i'd be happy to draw every match, as some of my best games have been draws where even the dice gods haven't overly favoured one player & influenced the outcome.

hence why i've never played BB with a skaven or wood elf team & why i doubt i'll ever enter a tourney with one.

i've just started playing FUMBBL & adopt the same ethos on there, prefering to help get other players started & have a decent chat during the game,

[Marco Gianni]

Because taking part was more important than winning, all matchups were random.

In my opinion Eurobowl is a tough competition, more difficult than the World Cup because we have to play against the best players of each country. I'm sure that a team can be competitive, with power gamers, and come to Eurobowl to have fun and enjoy the moment. I mean it's not incompatible...

In 2007 there was the NAF World Cup

Swiss/swiss system if I don't make any mistake...

Moving to Swiss/Swiss makes winning the EB as the prime objective. (don't we have enough tournaments in the rest of the year that have this approach??)

I don't see why tghe Eurobowl shouldn't be a "normal" competition, with its part of fun and a purpose for all : winning it !

One more time, I don't think that going to a tournament to win should kill the fun or forbid to talk eachother and enjoy being together. First of all Eurobowl is a competition and the winner should be in right to be proud of it shouldn't he ? so why searching to minimize the victory by have such come back (you never played anyone good) ?


Well, I just want to say that it's simply my opinion and if the random system should be applied (the Italians will decide it) it won't disturb me at all

[haktar]

+1 with Marco

In addition, the argument "yeah, well you never played anyone good" can be accepted, all players are good, there is only bad or good dices

Lucifer talk about the first idea of the Eurobowl, but ideas evolve. I think that last Eurobowl was very cool, i meet a lot of people, it was very pleasant during the games and after the games. So for me the swiss system have all the advantage.

Moreover, in our case there are players that will play their first foreign tournament, why because we have not a lot choise of players, so the argument of we played a lot of tournament during the year don't apply to us.

In addition, the swiss system give a chance to a country to avoid a series of 8-0 : there is no problem of loosing games but sometime winning one during the tournament is good

[wp]

Quick history lesson for the newbies among us?

In 2004 (Germany) it was Random/Random

In 2005 (England) it was Random/Random. I also wrote a "Eurobowl" tournament system to track results, do the random draws, etc.

In 2006 (Italy) it was Random/Random. The "Eurobowl" system I wrote was updated and used.

In 2007 there was the NAF World Cup

In 2008 (Spain) it was Swiss/Swiss

You forgot the 2003 (Holland) that was Random/Random

[Princelucianus]

The original idea of the first Eurobowl was simply to meet people and make your chances of playing 5-6 foreigners very very likely (only format with a 100% don't play your countryman format) and being forced to mingle after the matches more likely.
Normally (not for everybody) people will go to a tourney with a few mates and see them mostly as well during the tourney after game hours.
This concept made that less lilely to occur.

The biggest problem (or mistake), was making the tourney a NAF event. It was meant as a social gathering and suddenly all kinds of team organisors got mails from people that they should be allowed to play because they had a higher teamrating than others who did play. I heard remarks from some coaches which were more than just painfull. ''Why do we have a girl in our team'' was one of them.

After the first year(s), countries have their own way how to solve these things. Small countries are glad to get 8 players, bigger ones organise it somehow. But some mentality has been lost. Teams seem to be overeager to win it, which is good for competativeness, but has dramatically dropped the amount of players which, in my opinion, actually need to be there. Indeed, where are the women. Definitely present during episode 1 but already gone in 2, because they couldn't qualify.

What I heard from last years episode (from one of my friends who went) was that the level off competing had again increased. For a bad player, it's actually quite enjoyable that the format allowed incredible drawing opportunities. Why can't you play against everybody? A match between NAF rating 2000 againt NAF rating 3 should be possible in each round. All the other tournaments are already Swiss. The tourney format worked all years, we have had the rightfull winners, I don't see why it should change. But if the title is the most important aspect, than Swiss is the most fair.

The fact that "some countries might have a lucky draw" is always possible. But many matches showed that easy draws don't a champion make. The second year we had to play Denmark and one player claimed they were lucky to draw us and England and Germany drew eachother. That remark simply made us fight some more................

My rant is a bit longer than expected, but it was the idea Redfang and I had and was succesfull (me thinks). The Eurobowl is a tourney for all countries and how these differences might be resolved is probably best to be resolved by the Italians. If the next winner thinks it doesn't work, then they can always change it back next year. I do hope the Italians consider what the tourney is meant to be:
Either the only prize for BB countries, where even if you suck, you can actually still be a winner.
Or the most international bloodbowl social event.

Every country can base their team how they see fit anyway.

Lucy

[Elyoukey]

Why can't you play against everybody? A match between NAF rating 2000 againt NAF rating 3 should be possible in each round.

My point was that in a competitive environment, this match would not be fun because the 2Kcoach would win easilly and the 3Coach would not have fun being bashed. In a non competitive environment, a match like this would be very funny for both parts and both would enjoy it i think.

If the tourney is only a big meeting, then there is no need to schedule matches or to make rules. Let's pick a city, put a barbecue in it, 10-11 boards and lets go bloodbowl (i would surely register to such an event)

[haktar]

Why can't you play against everybody? A match between NAF rating 2000 againt NAF rating 3 should be possible in each round.

My point was that in a competitive environment, this match would not be fun because the 2Kcoach would win easilly and the 3Coach would not have fun being bashed. In a non competitive environment, a match like this would be very funny for both parts and both would enjoy it i think.

If the tourney is only a big meeting, then there is no need to schedule matches or to make rules. Let's pick a city, put a barbecue in it, 10-11 boards and lets go bloodbowl (i would surely register to such an event)

+1

Indeed why make rules if it is not a tournament?

In addition the name is Eurobowl, and not European Blood Bowl Meeting.

[Longshot]

But some mentality has been lost. Teams seem to be overeager to win it, which is good for competativeness, but has dramatically dropped the amount of players which, in my opinion, actually need to be there.

What I heard from last years episode (from one of my friends who went) was that the level off competing had again increased.

My rant is a bit longer than expected, but it was the idea Redfang and I had and was succesfull (me thinks).
Lucy

+1 to the old timer !

National communities expect differents things about Eurobowl along the years..and yes it became ,for half of the team, a competitive National Team Event.

[Princelucianus]

My point was that in a competitive environment, this match would not be fun because the 2Kcoach would win easilly and the 3Coach would not have fun being bashed. In a non competitive environment, a match like this would be very funny for both parts and both would enjoy it i think.

Actually, I never heard that argument. For some players it gives a chance to play anybody from the opposing team. My own results in tourney's are pretty bad, but I would like to play anybody. I don't think there are lower ranked players who actually fear playing someone?
Several players actually had a chance to play some great names in BB only at the Eurobowl, which apparently is only possible for them in a non swiss format.

Anyway, I don't think players will (not) come if the format remains either swiss or not.

If the tourney is only a big meeting, then there is no need to schedule matches or to make rules. Let's pick a city, put a barbecue in it, 10-11 boards and lets go bloodbowl (i would surely register to such an event)

Actually, having rules is always a prerequisite for any gaming meeting. No matter which way it goes. Let's have rules, a gaming experience, a title and bragging rights for the winners and a social event. Not having rules is simply ridiculous.

Lucy

[Longshot]

Elyoukey and Hacktar: You cant argue with Lucy as he is the prime organisator of the event !
I mean, he and Redfang made this event on particular purpose, time has changed it along the years for players but they created this idea of Eurobowl not for competiveness but as a good party to be.
Of course, more and more people want to be a part of it which made selections different in each country to suit their own national communitie but dont try to explain the Eurobowl meaning to the one that created it ^^

[Topper]

I must admit, that I have no idea on what the original idea was about.
The Danish team came in 2004, and has been present ever since then though.
I love this tournament because it is social, much more than most other tourneys >I have attended, it´s more or less the same coaches that attend, and the level of play is high.

I love a good competitive game, and dislike luck - I believe the less luck the better - so ofcourse I am in favor of swiss/swiss.
I have played many great close games at EB, and the best ones are the closest ones IMO.

I also cannot see why competitive and friendly atmosphere can´t go hand in hand?
I feel I have a good "friendship" with many of the English, Italian & French first and foremost - why?
Probably because after a very even hard game, the respect towards the other person is there from a natural instance - a good game.

It won´t come as easily in a 4-0 trashing, as one coach might sound whiny and the other snobbish. (Not that it´s like money in the bank, but happens).

I also like the grudge matches.

My two cents

[Darkson]

Hypothecitcally, if I was a good player, I'd regularly play the same people tourney after tourney after tourney, the other good players.

I can see why a random draw would be fun in that event.

Of course, as a poor player that won't ever go, it doesn't mean that much to me anyway.


And comparing the Eurobowl to the NAF WC is a bad comparison. The Eurobowl was always meant to be a social get-together for coaches that were willing to travel to BB tourneys abroad, not competative. The WC was always meant to be the biggest competition.