Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Topper »

I´ll just draw a line in the sand here guys :o
In short the discussion started last year (or actually the year before) - because it´s the same teams that are chosen over and over again.
There was alot of people who wanted to change this - In short there are two routes to go:
Forced (ie. you have to choose teams from "pairings" or brackets where they are placed after perceived strength) - this is the one Afroman suggests. So why don´t I like that? Well first of all don´t force people to choose certain teams. Second some of the teams attending the EB use the total points gotten at the event as a qualifier for next year. Therefor another way is needed and our suggestion is this. It benefits both those who like the "usual" strong teams and those who are willing to take another team as they find it good enough due to that extra skill. I have PM´d those captains (or representatives for the captains) I could remember and asked for the opinions of themselves and their team. This is what people find fair. It is not so much about "I don´t think that a team should get help as they are supposed to be that way" discussion. That is more of a "seen from a roleplaying view" discussion. There is (near) concensus on the fact that something should be done. The discussion is what. It might well be that it won´t be possible to agree on a rule system and then it won´t be changed. But lets discuss the cons and pros of this suggestion with valid arguments.
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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Dave »

TBH I think your second point has no value as you've said somewhere else:
Per default it is up to the team captain of each team how to pick it´s members. For a completely new team I believe the succes criteria is "those who are willing to travel is a good start ;)"
However team Sweden are in the same process as you trying to start a team.
You can perhaps read that thread - as much of the discussion there applies to you too :)
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=32942

Hope you get one together - it is a great tourney and very addictive
and as I think you're extremely right in the bit I quoted I think forcing teams to also select (for example) one race out off tier 2 and 3) has no influence whatsoever on what coaches will be present and if it does it's part of the teamcaptain's freedom so no worrie for the organization.

Personally I think you should either keep race selection free (within the limit of singling out each race) and not write a ruleset to discourage certain races or 'guide' selection by demanding teams to take at least a certain amount of a certain number of races (for example at least one race from every tier)

Just my 2cents

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Casper »

I'm happy with the tiers and starting skills as they are now.
Not too many drastic changes - like Tourach said, that rule mingling enough for now.

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Boneless »

i think one of the biggest issues is when you change some thing to shall we say hinder a side a new side will become the super must have.

People talk about Wood Elfs or undead, Nerf these and a new side becomes the 'best side'

even players like a War Dancer with Strip Ball or tackle, nerf these and people will complain about the new best player like a witch with Wrestle.

I think the powers that be have build a good rule set and different teams have different strengths at different TV's

some one has to be the best player and one team has to be the best team.

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by SillySod »

Just a couple of observations...

1) I'm not sure why inducements are banned. The option to take stars would really help out underperforming teams like halflings and underworld and it would make those teams more fun to play and you dont have to invent any rules or attempt to balance it -> hence less whining/dispute.

2) I like giving boosts to the weak races but soemtimes you can go too far (not too far for my liking but sometime it can upset other people). At the moment I think you are a long way away from having gone too far, but its worth remembering that it can happen. Also the further you go with custom rules the more likely it is that they will be contentious.

3) Giving extra skills to failing races is ok. Can't say I'm a huge fan because I dont think that it actually helps out the weakest races very much. As someone who does well with some of the quirky teams I doubt this would actually influence my team choice much... I might consider a team that I thought had slipped into tier 2 by accident (humans) but on the whole the advantage is negligable compared to having lizardmen, woodies, undead, etc. And I am crap with those teams. I'm suggesting that despite playing vamps far better than I can play woodies I'd still be confident of a better record with woodies, which is alarming. I dont object to the extra skills, I just feel that there are better ways to incentivise certain races.

4) How about a giant killer bonus? Each time you beat a race in a higher tier you would get some bonus points for your team. So lets say you get 10 points for a win, 5 for a draw, and then you get +1 point for beating a tier 0 team with a tier 1 team, a +2 bonus for beating a tier 0-1 team with a tier 2 team and +3 bonus for winning with a tier 3 team (if you didnt play against another tier 3 team). This way the rubbish teams are still tough to win with and the top tier teams can still plough through them getting win after win.... but a good player can potentially cause some upsets and reap a good haul for their team with one of the weaker races.

Cmon, upsets are where its at when you are playing the weak races. No one plays the weak races because they got an extra skill... they play them because beating Geoff Porit with your halflings is a sweet sweet thing. Offering bonus points for doing that will help make Geoffs pain all the more fun because that win is bigger. Also, you wont have to worry as much about letting the team down because potentially you arent letting them down at all. IMO stunties are especially are particularly unappealing in Eurobowl because atm you know you let your team down as soon as you take them. And, for alot of countries, letting your team down before you even played a game makes it hard for you to justify your place on the team. With bonus points it at least becomes a legitimate option.

5) If you want to "force" people to take bad teams then the tier system that was proposed last time (each team can must have exactly one from each tiny tier) was stupid and highly restrictive. A better way would be to make teams cost a certain number of points and then give each team a budget. e.g. Tier 0 costs 3 points, Tier 1 costs 2 points, tier 2 costs 1 point, tier 4 costs 0, each team can spend up to 16 points on their eight teams. Or some sort of system like that. You can give teams quite alot of flexibility while still preventing them from having the same eight top tier teams.

6) I also think that sure hands is a big factor in whether or not a team is good in tournaments. However, balancing teams and tiers and rules around that one skill would be a mistake.

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by DoubleSkulls »

SillySod wrote:I'm not sure why inducements are banned.
I've played in and run several tournaments where all inducements except cards are allowed. Under LRB6 I've never seen anything I thought was a problem. I'm not entirely sure why they are generally restricted in Europe.

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by SillySod »

DoubleSkulls wrote:
SillySod wrote:I'm not sure why inducements are banned.
I've played in and run several tournaments where all inducements except cards are allowed. Under LRB6 I've never seen anything I thought was a problem. I'm not entirely sure why they are generally restricted in Europe.
They are very common in the UK. Some tournaments disallow them but most tend to allow them with a couple of caveats:
- cards are often banned (but usually arent a problem, beyond being annoying)
- wizards are almost always banned (they do screw up the game a little bit tbh, skaven with a wizard are relatively crazy)

As far as I can tell most of the tournaments that dont allow inducements do so for variety/preference reasons rather than balance concerns. I think we have seen quite alot of attempts at breaking the system (notably deathrollers with bribes) and tbh I dont remember those teams performing exceptionally.

Oh, its also worth noting that if inducements end up being allowed then underworld are absolutely a tier 2 team, not a tier 3 team. Star players are totally huge for them.

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Afroman »

DoubleSkulls wrote:
I've played in and run several tournaments where all inducements except cards are allowed. Under LRB6 I've never seen anything I thought was a problem. I'm not entirely sure why they are generally restricted in Europe.
Interesting. Out of curiosity, how often did you see low tier teams in those tournaments DoubleSkulls?

Just so we are clear on what we are disscussing(or at least I am), these arguments and suggestion are to give allraces a chance to get some represantation on tournaments.

I'm a halfling/Undead player.
Halfling for fun.
Undead to win.

I would like to take flings for EuroBowl, but as was mentioned before, this is a team tournament. You cannot play Flings properly if you are worry about losing.

The extra skills are nice but as SS mentioned, it won't do much difference unless they are doubles. So at least in my case that won't be the reason for choosing flings, If I choose flings.

I still feel the "forcing" system is the fairest. All teams receive the same handicap. And everytime any low Tier team wins, it will count more since chances are the other teams low-tier teams wont win theirs. This way you easily avoid any special rules while you still add variety to the game.
Tourach wrote: Hmmm yeah well, this would mean you would have 6 top teams and two punching bags-teams meeting each other in each match (in theory at least) ... So I am highly against this.
If you compare it to having 8 top teams instead meeting eachother, what is the difference? that the low tier teams wont play, and if they do they will automatically cripple the team they are part of since other team probably won't have low-tier.

My 2 cents

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Tourach »

Afroman wrote: If you compare it to having 8 top teams instead meeting eachother, what is the difference? that the low tier teams wont play, and if they do they will automatically cripple the team they are part of since other team probably won't have low-tier.
I would like to think that the bottom of tier 1 is somewhat more competitive than tier 3 teams ...

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Topper »

Okay the thought here is that each team has to take 8 teams.
So does it make a difference to get a single skill (or in a few cases 2).
No, not compared to the truly good races - but it does for quite a few others.
An extra skill or two makes your team alot more competitive than it seems - we have tried it many, many times now.
Not so much better that it´s broken or shifts balance.
But enough to make it viable to take the slightly less powerful teams of tier 1.
One such example is humans that isn´t as strong as Dwarves, Orcs etc. but still acceptable.
The idea isn´t to make every team of the same strenght - as that is impossible.
The idea is to make them competitive.
Does it work - yes it does. Not to the extend that everybody changes race, and that is good, because that isn´t the intend.
It is to open up for new choices - all captains (to my knowledge agrees on that).

Again I accept that you might feel other systems are better. And you may be right or you may not. However we won´t go too far away from this suggestion.
Why - because we need a system that has been playtested and that everybody has the time to playtest. Otherwise it simply won´t be accepted.
This one has been playtested alot.
Another argument is that the more changes and/or the more drastic these are the less chance they have of getting through.

With that said:

@Afroman: The big difference between forcing players to choose bad teams and giving teams a small boost is that you open up for people to choose a team that perhaps is slightly more challenging. But with the right skill choices can be somewhat better. (perhaps 5-10%).
Fx a human team that starts with an extra guard blitzer or a blodge Catcher extra or perhaps a leader thrower. A Chaos team that starts with an extra block Warrior or what you feel like.
Especially in the first games that extra skill makes a difference.
Also most people want to feel like thay have about the same chances as the next man - and you simply don´t with a Halfling team.

About inducements - they can be powerful, and actually quite powerful.
First off the Wizard is really good - really, really good.
Especially for those with cheap players.
The same goes for a undead team with the count for example. (despite the fact that he is so expensive).

We have tried and seen that at alot of tourneys and most feel it doesn´t belong here.

@Sillysod - the idea that the teams of different tiers cost points and you have a particular amount to use is (IMO) a rather interesting idea.
However I feel it has to be playtested to be implemented as the EB isn´t a place to test if things work in general. (Though this wouldn´t be broken in any way - the exact amount of points needed would have to be tested some times). It still have the issue that it isn´t based on free will - and that is an issue. Especially for those that say you need to do so and so well to keep your place in the team. (or it´s open for everyone - yourself included to "win" it.)

@Dave I am not sure I follow you here.
Those guidelines you quote are for new countries - not well astablished countries.
For us there´s alot of fight for getting a position on the team and around 30 people or so want to be in I believe. That isn´t possible - therefor some kind of "fair" system to make sure that the team continues (som people who continues from time to time to keep it moving on), that it stays very competible and is "objectively" chosen (i.e. the captain picks his friends fx) is needed. So it is a problem for the organizers if me make a rule that gives some players a disadvantage right from the start.
and not write a ruleset to discourage certain races
- but we haven´t done that at all - we are doing the exact opposite. writing one to encourage a wider selection of races chosen - without overpowering these or tip the balance too far.
or did I missunderstand you?

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Dave »

ah .. I have probabely misunderstood, xcuse me :D

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Da_Great_MC »

I can only speak for myself, but I would love a Eurobowl in which each country has to field some lower tier teams. I've really had it with testing Dwarf vs Orc vs Amazon vs Wood Elf vs Undead matchups. There are so many other great teams!

I really want to bring a team like for example Underworld to Eurobowl. I am confident that I'd still be able to take it to a 2-2-2 finish (little more or less, depending on the dice and the opponents' strength).

The problem is: in the current system, the prospect of a 2-2-2 finish doesn't justify taking Underworld to Eurobowl. I'd be letting my team down.

In a system where each country has to bring a few lower tier teams, I'd be taking one for the greater good of the team and a halfway finish would be applauded on.

I wouldn't see this as "forcing people to play bad teams". I think there are a lot of people out there (at least 2 or 3 in each country's team) who feel the same.

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Joemanji »

IMO Eurobowl is not the forum for forcing people to use weaker races. In fact it is as far from that as any tournament has been. It is about each nation pitting its best players against each other. Big boys using big toys. :D

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Purplegoo »

Joemanji wrote:IMO Eurobowl is not the forum for forcing people to use weaker races. In fact it is as far from that as any tournament has been. It is about each nation pitting it's best players against each other. Big boys using big toys. :D
Quite so, in my opinion!

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Re: Eurobowl 2012 Proposed ruleset

Post by Da_Great_MC »

Joemanji wrote:IMO Eurobowl is not the forum for forcing people to use weaker races. In fact it is as far from that as any tournament has been. It is about each nation pitting it's best players against each other. Big boys using big toys. :D
I am a big boy (experience, tournament victories, NAF rankings...).
I have played with all the big toys... and I am growing tired of doing so.
I'd like to play with a smaller toy. But not if this means I am letting my team down. I think a lot of people feel this way.

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