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 Post subject: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:20 pm 
Rapdog - formally known as Pippy
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Hi everyone

There have been some discussions in the Captains only section of the forum regarding the future rules of Eurobowl from 2014 onward.

See below a proposal for a stable set of rules moderated by the NAF. This is a topic where it has been very difficult to obtain consensus. I therefore feel the NAF needs to provide leadership here, acting as an objective party.

The ‘Menu of Choices’ for the hosting TO is as follows:


>>TR of 105, 110 or 115

>>Base of 6 extra skills. Either a) one before each game, b) given in two packages – 3 before day one / 3 before day two, c) all 6 skills as one package before day one. A double can also be included.

>>Incentives for lower tiered teams are permitted at the discretion of the Tournament Director in line with point 6 of the pre-tournament requirements of the Tournament Approval Document (as per any other NAF tournament submission).

>>Random round 1 draw, then Swiss (teams, then individuals in both cases)

>>1 / 0.5 / 0 points scoring for individual matches, with a bonus point for a ‘team win’, and half a bonus point for a ‘team draw’


This is a fixed set of choices, choices which should be made by the host TO before the end of December before Eurobowl, as a guide deadline.

Under arbitration from the Tournament Director, modifications to the Menu can be made as follows:


>>Changes should be considered only where it is felt there is a strong opinion within the wider Eurobowl community for change. The TD
should make a judgment, in discussion with the hosting TO, as to whether any movements for change carry sufficient weight. If so, the TO or TD should initiate a democratic process for each potential change

>>This process would take place in the manner we have seen previously i.e. current captains voting on specific change(s), collating the views and acting on behalf of all NAF members in their national communities

>>It may be the case that new captains are not yet in
place for all nations. In which case captains for the previous Eurobowl may be required to vote. That would be a matter for particular national communities to decide.

>>A two thirds majority vote or greater is required to bring
about change



*EDITED AFTER CAPTAINS' DISCUSSION AND VOTE AT VIENNA 2013*

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Last edited by Pipey on Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:25 pm 
Rapdog - formally known as Pippy
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Further to the above... as TD I feel stability of the Eurobowl rules is important for a number of reasons

>>It allows TOs to avoid extensive discussions and votes around the rules of the event and instead lets them focus on the more important job of organising the tournament.

>>It would be better for a) coaches seeking selection and b) the selecting captains, if the variables were known in advance and not subject to extensive change. Those aiming for selection are often "training" over a long period with specific races. Moving the goalposts each year
would not be fair to them and would make the captains' jobs much harder. Selection can be very tough, especially in the large and active national communities. It has also been controversial in the past
prior to full compliance with point 4 of the tournament approval document (selection in representative events). We need to do all we can to make the process run smoothly

>>Consistency and balance is important. A poorly balanced rule set would not be fitting of this celebration of the best Blood Bowl players in Europe. This is the same sort of thinking as would apply to the NAF World Cup (whose rules also remain fixed). I also feel a stable and well balanced rule set may see EB
(and EO) suitable for consideration as an additional K-Value tournament for the NAF rankings alongside the majors.

I acknowledge that not everyone will agree with this approach (as discussed in the captains section). Please have faith as we move towards Eurobowl 2014 next year. If the Menu turns out to be highly unpopular, then a future TD may wish to review it. As described above there is a framework for modifying the Menu and this may be felt appropriate from 2016 onward (2015 being a NAFWC year).

See you all on Friday!

Brendan :)

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Since you're making this a public announcement/discussion I've taken the liberty of adding the best arguments against such a menu.

Mepmuff wrote:
The only thing that needs addressing is getting the rules out in time. I'm opposed to restricting organizers any further and I don't see a reason for this.

I consider the way the Eurobowl is currently working and evolving as not broken and not in need of fixing.


Hanu wrote:
while I'm not too thrilled of hosting EB, but I'd be even less interested if my hands were already tied (with somewhat loose knots, granted, but still). Community's and captains opinions would still make sure that the changes would not be so big in any case, but the feeling when you have only responsibilities, and no liberties, takes away a lot of excitement of creating a tournament for the fellow eurobowlers


I especially dislike what you're suggesting here...

Pippy wrote:
Consistency and balance is important. A poorly balanced rule set would not be fitting of this celebration of the best Blood Bowl players in Europe.


Anyways, we've had the debate on the captain's forum. If this is where it's going, so be it.

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Last edited by Da_Great_MC on Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:48 pm 
Kommissar Enthusiasmoff
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Do pop it on the NAF forum too, or even a nice post on thenaf.net ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:27 pm 
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Personally, I think it is a reasonable proposal that leaves some decisions to the hosts (which I deem important). However, people should read it, talk about it and talk to their captains. We then should decide on the topic (or at least discuss it) on Friday/Evening. If not enough captains will be there on friday, we can talk again on saturday.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:23 am 
Da Spammer
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And don't forget, if people really don't like it, there's the TD election (next year?).

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:51 am 
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I would like to put it in a Nutshell to Check if i understood correctly:

There was no consensus for anything in the captains forum, so therefore the NAF TD took a decision for a rather fixed set of rules.
(No negative touch to this wording intended, just really short)

If so,
I am always for people making a decision in a dead end situation, because at one point you have to stop discussion and start doing something.

But I am also not fully happy with the decision.
I am more for a less restricted framework. I think it is still bloodbowl involving dice and good bloodbowl players should be able to handle some variation once in a while.
I think it makes us think of variations which I would like to see also for such a big event and which brings more excitement.

I am fully with mepmuffs statement.
It's all about early availability of rules.

So for me it would be just like this:
- future host has to provide fixed rules on January 1st ( ok pick any other date in that timeframe)
- if rules are so absurd that it raises a lot discussion have the discussions until 31st of January (pick a date)
- if it is clear that those rules are not acceptable for the wider audience by that date, instead of continuing discussion endlessly (which is easy on forums) simply roll back to a strict reference default rules set (e.g. Tv110, 3 skills first, 2+1double second day, no tiers)
( but I still do believe that all hosts may come up with some controversial rules, never with really unbalanced or stupid ones. Yes they can favour some teams more then others, but this would result also in seeing some variations in teams and setups as it affects all participants and rather unexperienced nations I think will anyway pick a conservative rule set)

So yes have it the way for now, but I do strongly believe that box should be opened again for further discussion or deserves a poll involving more people (basic question is strict or not strict)

My 2cents
Cheers
Oventa

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:19 pm 
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Da_Great_MC wrote:
Since you're making this a public announcement/discussion I've taken the liberty of adding the best arguments against such a menu.

Mepmuff wrote:
The only thing that needs addressing is getting the rules out in time. I'm opposed to restricting organizers any further and I don't see a reason for this.

I consider the way the Eurobowl is currently working and evolving as not broken and not in need of fixing.


Hanu wrote:
while I'm not too thrilled of hosting EB, but I'd be even less interested if my hands were already tied (with somewhat loose knots, granted, but still). Community's and captains opinions would still make sure that the changes would not be so big in any case, but the feeling when you have only responsibilities, and no liberties, takes away a lot of excitement of creating a tournament for the fellow eurobowlers


I especially dislike what you're suggesting here...

Pippy wrote:
Consistency and balance is important. A poorly balanced rule set would not be fitting of this celebration of the best Blood Bowl players in Europe.


Anyways, we've had the debate on the captain's forum. If this is where it's going, so be it.


I totaly disagree with Pippy and totally agree with the post of Da_Gret_MC Mepmuff etc.

I'd add two more points:

-Captains "agreements" is easy to obtain but is only a small part of the people patecipating to the tournaments and it excluded the voice of person inscribed to the €penbowl.

-I totaly disagree with the involving of the naf in the eurobowl, I still don't understand how the past €bowl tournaments where naf-sanctionated being clearly a not-open tournament.

€bowl is easy, just a small number of guidlines with no fixed restrictions. Keep it free...


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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:50 am 
Rapdog - formally known as Pippy
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Past Eurobowls were invitational to some extent. That's changed now, now point 4 of the approval guidelines is adhered to. I think it's fantastic we can move forward with Eurobowl as a NAF event. Consistent structure supports the selection aspect as described above.

I feel strongly about the above path; please trust me on this as elected TD. If we wish this to be a NAF tournament then let's use the above model for 2014. Certainly I will be TD in the run up to next year's EB. The TD in 2015/16 may wish to review things.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Eurobowl is still invitational.
It has nothing "open" in it.
It's sanctioning is simply, from logical point of view, a nonsense.

The truth is that the eurobowl is Naf sanctioned because the coaches that play it want so.
And they are the same people that make decisions in the Naf.

It would be nice if they simply admitted it. It would be fine by me.
They do the hard work, they take the reponsabilities and they make the choices.
A lot of praise and thanks to them.

But all this nonsense to justify it is just very bad.
It sounds like if you are taking the Naf Members for fools.

The problem with the sanctioning of the EB is not that EB is not democratical.
It is the fact it is not an open tournament.
The point 4 rule is fixing the wrong problem.

You want to justify the fact you sanction it?!?
A nice vote on the Naf forum is the ticket: "Should the Eurobowl be Naf sanctioned?" Yes/No
Between all the Naf Members (Not just Captains and National Team players, who have too much interest in the metter).
Easy. Clean. And democratical (since it seems so important).

Peace! Have a nice EB! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:51 pm 
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There are Now two questions in this Thread:

Should have eurobowl a strict rule Set defined? Yes/no
(no==but rules must be provided early)

Should eurobowl be naf sanctioned or not?

Personally I think the two topics are completely independent and have nothing to do with each other ( of which others may object)
The later topic was I think discussed last year extensively and I simple would not like to have tw to topics merged in one thread as it clutters things up
Just my 2cents

Looking forward to tonight :)

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:19 pm 
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Oventa wrote:
There are Now two questions in this Thread:

Should have eurobowl a strict rule Set defined? Yes/no
(no==but rules must be provided early)

Should eurobowl be naf sanctioned or not?

Personally I think the two topics are completely independent and have nothing to do with each other ( of which others may object)
The later topic was I think discussed last year extensively and I simple would not like to have tw to topics merged in one thread as it clutters things up
Just my 2cents

Looking forward to tonight :)

I agree 100%. Mine was just an answer to previous post of Pippy.

By the way I don't think EB shouldn't be Naf sanctioned.
I just think the Naf should admit its sanctioning is an exception to the common rules due to its importance.
And so avoid the "democracy" nonsense.

Have fun.


Last edited by Rolex on Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:35 pm 
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On the topic: should there be fixed ruleset for the EB?

I don't think so.
Many Tournament Organizers will blindly adopt it.
Which will go towards a reduction in variety of rulesets.
Lack of variety take the fun out of this game.
And it shows a worring need for control (in dice game :lol: ).

Since there are 3 EB beween World Cups and since most of tourneys are at TV 100, 105 and 110, I think it would be very good to have a EB in each "cicle" at each TV. I would be more rapresentative of tournament gaming as it is.

There is another question that perhaps needs its own topic:
does the Naf (the TD) have the autority to dictate rules for a tourney that it does not organize (and maybe should not sanction either)? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:39 pm 
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We had a meeting and a discussion on friday evening. We agreed on a framework that future Eurobowl rules have to fit in. Within that framework the host can still decide for the most part what way to go. Essentially it is Pippy's proposal with the one change that the tv is opened up to be in between 105 and 115. I'm sure, he will post the agreed on frameworks during the course of this week.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:59 pm 
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It is funny to find out how much the NAF is involved in rule out EuroBowl, being constantly arguing against this connection at all in past elections.

As stated, there are two different questions here:

>> First, should be Eurobowl be NAF-sanctioned? This is probably one of the most cynical performances of current NAF officers. Pretending that Eurobowl is not actually invitational, just to poorly justify their NAF-sanctioned club party.

Eurobowl was never and is currently not open to all Bloodbowl Players. Thus, it is invitational indeed. Does not matter who and by which process people are invited.

Hence, as the entire NAF office is involved in, and enjoy their ranking points be in play, the just simply sanction it, and once a part of the community disagree, they just try to adapt the NAF Tournament Ruleset to hide what is clearly a question of nepotism.

>> Second, fixed ruleset, months of training... Surely EuroBowl is a question of "meet european bloodbowlers and have fun", as most of their defenders stated before. But what is perceived from the outside is that there is a push to have what could be a truly selection tournament with fixed ruleset, classification tournaments and more and more promotion of competitiveness above fun.

Why don't simply allow organizers (who are involving a impressive personal effort) to decide the ruleset? This kind of statements are not fitting well with which is merely "for fun".

Trying to be constructive (I wouldn't be accused to be destructive anymore) it wouldn't be more fun if you allow, for example, the inclussion of two Tier 3 and one Tier 3 team in every Eurobowl team? It would still maintain equilibrium, and could be popular between all majority of players (who knows), but it would be impossible to reach with current ruleset.

And on top of that, are we always excusing such dictatorial movements with furter elections? It is a pitty to see how a community built club as NAF is, take care of member's opinion only from election to election...



Eurobowl is an example of what is certainly wrong with NAF. People pursuing their own interest and amusement, forgetting about the (widely cited by them) community and de facto creating an elite between players and usual members considerations.

Same people drive NAF, same people pretend to invest Eurobowl of officiallity because they enjoy NAF matches recorded. And now the same people pretend to assume Eurobowl decissions after saying there is no connection between NAF and Eurobowl.

Is quite fun for me what would happen if an annonymous member of the NAF pretend to do same things that NAF officers do as usual.

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