Register    Login    Forum    FAQ

Board index » Community Discussion » Tournament Postings » Eurobowl/EurOpen




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:18 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:58 pm
Posts: 2737
Location: Watching the great unclean armpits of a Beast Of Nurgle
Tripleskull wrote:
mepmuff wrote:
As to the actual best way to score a team's performance, I'm of the opinion as well that 3-1-0, 2-1-0 is the best way.

We don't need 3-1-0 because we don't need incentive to win the games. People are playing to win already its not like in football. So 2-1-0 or an equivalent system is the way to go.

The idea of a team event is that the team wins, regardless of individual coaches losing their matches. This is currently represented by a bonus point for the team. The consequence is that coaches hold out for the draw because that may be enough to provide the country the victory and their half point is worth 1.5. If you want individual coaches to play for the win individual matches should be scored 3-1-0, nations will play for the win anyway so countries could be ranked 2-1-0 or whatever not to skew the ranking too much.

_________________
Image

Nuffle Sucks!


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:31 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 6:58 pm
Posts: 2737
Location: Watching the great unclean armpits of a Beast Of Nurgle
When it comes to the ruleset discussion: the TV 110+/-5 is entirely arbitrary in my opinion. Its only effect is that only the standard way of playing tier 1 teams is really competitive. Why shouldn't there be a system where tier 2 teams can be competitive or other tactics than the typical 2-1 grind are viable options? If a country wants to have TV130 with a minimum TV100 worth of players and RR, and the rest open to the discretion of the coaches to spend in any way they like (including selected inducements and limits on stats increases) it should still be a balanced tournament. It will be a different tournament, sure, but the ruleset is unlikely to turn out broken. The only limitation there should be is that incentives to play lower tier teams should not lead to TV imbalance (like Halflings getting a free masterchef on top of their TV). The main difficulty will be to determine what are the tier 1 and tier 2 teams at higher TV. Good coaches should still come out on top, or they're not actually good coaches.

I do agree that it is good to have the rules available early in view of team selection, but I see absolutely no reason why there should be any limits on what these rules should be (as long as the rulebook applies).

_________________
Image

Nuffle Sucks!


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:49 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 11:10 am
Posts: 1639
Location: Bristol, UK
phil78 wrote:
Loki wrote:
This also has relevance to Strongest team, i.e. a nation with 8 good players (team 1) gains from the individual results format where a team with 5 excellent players and 3 poor ones (team 2) gains from basic mat-up result i.e. when team 1 and 2 play the other teams they both win their Team match ups so but Team 1 gets more idividual wins but when the two teams play each other team 2 just wins the overall match up.

So the question could be phrased which do you want to see win: the team which has the Strongest Average or the most individually skilled players?


I think this was mentioned earlier but Team 2 is going to be at a disadvantage either way.
Yes, they will have less large victories but they will also have less overall team victories where nuffle screws them, i.e. their zon coach draws the opposition dwarf coach. In a team with 8 strong players you can cope better with 1 or 2 disadvantaged match ups, in a team with 5 strong coahces you'd be far more liely to lose overall ties becuase of the same 1 or 2 bad match ups, or even just a coach rolling lots of skulls.


To expand the hypothetical example I was trying to make: if you have 4 teams and Team 1 has 8 good coaches, team 2 has 5 excellent coaches and three poor coaches and teams 3 and 4 have 8 average coaches each: if everyone plays everyone else and an Excellent coach always beats a good one and a good coach always beats an average, etc. Depending on whether you use individual matches or teams results you will end with two different results for overall winner i.e. for individual results; Team 1 beats Team 2, 19 to 15: for team results Team 2 beats Team 3-0 to 2-1.

The above is obviously a very simplistic example which would be very difficult to recognise in the real world and I understand what you are saying about poor match ups and bad dice in reality will change the actual numbers but when you are choosing one system over another I think it is helpful to use theoretical extremes to illustrate and inform the choice we are making.

_________________
Time flies like an arrow, Fruit flies like a banana.
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:06 pm 
Chopper Pilot
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:18 pm
Posts: 296
Location: Manchester, UK
How about increasing the bonus points awarded for a team victory? I think it could go as high as 4 points for a team win. That way a team is not so far behind if it wins 5.5 to 3.5 but one of its competitors wins 8-0. They are still 3.5 points behind but now even a small win against that team when they play would put them ahead. All this whilst still keeping the full point available for an individual win.

_________________
I have the con.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:16 pm 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star

Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:55 pm
Posts: 320
Jimjimjimany wrote:
How about increasing the bonus points awarded for a team victory? I think it could go as high as 4 points for a team win. That way a team is not so far behind if it wins 5.5 to 3.5 but one of its competitors wins 8-0. They are still 3.5 points behind but now even a small win against that team when they play would put them ahead. All this whilst still keeping the full point available for an individual win.


How about keping the full point for individual wins and then up the bonus point to 1000 points. You get to keep the point for the individual win and the team wins Counts apropriately. :wink:

To be fair your suggestion is 2nd best and it almost fixes the problem. :)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:09 pm 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:18 pm
Posts: 276
Location: Aarhus, Denmark
As several have said by now - what we want (IMO) is a system that shows it´s about the team - not the single players in it.
I personally don´t mind if it´s 1000/500/0 + individual scores, 2/1/0 or any other way.
But I do feel that as it is, we´re giving "goals" (the individual games) too much effect.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:41 pm 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star

Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 10:58 am
Posts: 336
i do like the actual system because it make the competition a bit more "spectacular" because even after the 5th round there are still several countries that can claim the first place. I think it would be boring to have a system in which england would not have to win his last round to be crowned as champion. It was the case for Azzroag in europen, even if he had lost his last game, he would still be first, so what the point of the 6th round in this case ? ( i think most of top coaches here had this experience to play the last game without any need for the outcome)
Of course i was on the good side, each time (this year and previous year) as France was not on table 1 and used the system to grab a better place in the last round. But i think more about the comunity and all players that could not come in vienna. The french comunity is about 150 players wide and only 8 can play the eurobowl so we are trying to set up kind of a show for them to follow. If we knew after round 5 that we did not stand a chance (even little) then it would be less interesting.

There are probably a lot of system that could determine which country has the biggest bowl, but there is no perfect one. The current system has the advantage i think to allow the competition to run until the end, until the last -2D block has been attempted to grab the 0.5 point missing. i think it is more in the "spirit" because in the end we all know it is a dice game and we all like to roll the dice to win (or not)

my 2 cents

_________________
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:59 pm 
Rapdog - formally known as Pippy
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:56 pm
Posts: 4185
Location: King John's Tavern, The Square Mile, West Hartlepool
Taking my TD cap off, I had some musings about the proposed change of scoring that Tripleskulls and others had mooted. Brainstormed a few pros and cons.

So we’re clear what we’re dealing with, we currently have:

*1 / 0.5 / 0 pts for individual wins.
*+1 pt for team win
*+0.5 pt for team draw
*(plus appropriate tiebreak)

Proposed change (most elegant one I heard was from Tripleskull, though a significant number of others have also talked about something similar):

*1 / 0.5 / 0 pts for team win
*First tiebreak is the individual wins, also scored at 1 / 0.5 / 0
*(plus appropriate second tiebreak)

Arguments for change:
-Will minimise the effect of the more competitive nations claiming big wins against less competitive nations – a team win can only ever be 1pt
-Will make very close team ties even more exciting – no longer just a case of playing for a bonus point on top of the individual point, almost everything will be on the team win
-Will be a change of philosophy from the ‘sum of total games’ approach, to a greater emphasis on the team aspect. Can’t be bad in what is essentially a competition between teams.
-Will be a change, which in itself may be a good thing. Teams may challenge their previous preconceptions and generate new strategies to succeed. No bad thing either.

Arguments against change:
-A narrow win against a less competitive nation carries very similar weight to a large win against a competitive nation e.g. an England win of 4.5 - 3.5 vs. San Marino, would basically score the same as France beating Italy 6.5 – 1.5. Or two narrow wins against San Marino and Luxembourg would beat a thumping win vs. Italy and a tie with Belgium. Could new ‘injustices’ be created?
-The problem of teams getting a ‘lucky draw’ via Swiss is not solved. Getting a couple of lucky draws while your competitors are fighting it out against each other seems just as likely to happen here as with the above.
-Individual matches late in the round will become less consequential when the team 1pt is already won e.g. in a dominant win (e.g. 6.5 – 1.5 as above) once 4.5 points is reached, the remaining games will be much less important than before.
-There may be less drama going into round 6 if there’s no chance of a big result from table two or three stealing the title. (=Elyoukey’s point)

_________________
UK Team Challenge IV - York, 20/21 January 2018
-"the home of quality Blood Bowl apparatus"
(and much more besides!)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:50 pm 
Power Gamer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:08 pm
Posts: 9227
Location: ECBBL, London, England
Pippy wrote:
Proposed change (most elegant one I heard was from Tripleskull, though a significant number of others have also talked about something similar):

*1 / 0.5 / 0 pts for team win
*First tiebreak is the individual wins, also scored at 1 / 0.5 / 0
*(plus appropriate second tiebreak)
If we were to use this then perhaps head-to-head should be the first tiebreaker? That way round 6 is much more likely to mean something? No hiding behind a superior tiebreaker knowing only an 2-6 loss will be costly.

_________________
*This post may have been made without the use of a hat.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:14 pm 
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:07 pm
Posts: 271
Quote:
If we were to use this then perhaps head-to-head should be the first tiebreaker? That way round 6 is much more likely to mean something? No hiding behind a superior tiebreaker knowing only an 2-6 loss will be costly.


Head-to-head as first tiebreaker reduces the importance of the individual game points, not the other way around. If for exampel round 6 on top table is Team 1 with 5 pts (5-0-0) against Team 2 with 4 pts (3-2-0), then Team 1 will win if they win or draw, and team 2 will win if they win, with no importance to the individual games at all if you have head-to-head as tiebreaker. If you have individual games as tiebreaker, team 1 will have a reason to fight for those last pts even after team 2 has taken 4,5 individual pts in the matchup becouse they might matter.

I would also suggest to score individual games 3/1/0 to promote wins, as in EuroOpen. Then a team with half wins/losses out score a "all draw" team, 12 to 8.

_________________
Image

EUROBOWL 2016 and EUROOPEN 22-23 October in Örebro, Sweden.

My guide to non-GW teams on SweBBA


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:34 pm 
Power Gamer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:08 pm
Posts: 9227
Location: ECBBL, London, England
Lard wrote:
I would also suggest to score individual games 3/1/0 to promote wins, as in EuroOpen.
3/1/0 is just horrible. A win is at least half as valuable as a draw IMO. Clinging on for a draw against all the odds is what Eurobowl is all about. Anyone can just roll a Blitz! and win 2-0. Not losing is the true mark of a good coach / team.

For example, in individual events 4/2/0 is better than 5/0/1, especially since Swiss will push a coach down to easier opponents after their loss.

_________________
*This post may have been made without the use of a hat.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:26 pm 
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:07 pm
Posts: 271
we write W/D/L right?

4/2/0 is the same as 1/0.5/0 or the prettier 2/1/0

5/0/1 has I never seen. Promoting losses over draws are just strange.

_________________
Image

EUROBOWL 2016 and EUROOPEN 22-23 October in Örebro, Sweden.

My guide to non-GW teams on SweBBA


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:40 pm 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:13 pm
Posts: 1610
Location: Cambridge
Hi gang.

I (personally) am heavily behind a scoring system change. I agree with Tripleskull's proposal, for all of the reasons others have eloquently argued already. We talked about this on the English forum prior to Vienna, and most people in that debate were also in favour of this change.

My understanding is that this is in the Belgian court in a post Vienna world? They would have to decide they wanted to stray from the 'menu' as voted in at the captain's meeting, gain agreement from the TD and then the captains would have to vote the change in by a majority of two thirds. If that is agreed, I guess I'd be interested to see what our next hosts thought.

It's a shame we didn't get to this in the Vienna captain's meeting, but it seemed like there were other, more controversial issues that took precedence. I would have brought it up myself, but it didn't seem to get huge traction in the captain's forum pre-tournament, and it was a long meeting. :)

Lard - Joe means 4 wins 2 ties > 5 wins 1 loss. I believe. So a 3/1/0 scoring system (rather than a win being weighted double a tie) incorrectly (in his view, and mine, actually) rewards winning one more game over not losing. I am in agreement that a tie being half of a win needs to stay; it's not football.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:39 pm 
Da Spammer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:04 pm
Posts: 23385
Location: Fundamentaling for the BB Illuminati
@Lard - Joe means a 4/2/0 result for a weekend is better than a 5/0/1 result correct a weekend - I don't think anyone would suggest scoring more points for a loss than a draw! :o

_________________
"I survived the 525!"
ARBBL 2017 Stunty Cup winner - even if I didn't get a chuffin' trophy!
SAWBBowl I Runner Up - with Vamps!
Block of Holding Runner Up *shakes fist at 20phoenix*


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:10 pm 
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:07 pm
Posts: 271
my bad. offcourse he mean that. Im so stupid sometimes

_________________
Image

EUROBOWL 2016 and EUROOPEN 22-23 October in Örebro, Sweden.

My guide to non-GW teams on SweBBA


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Board index » Community Discussion » Tournament Postings » Eurobowl/EurOpen


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: