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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Pakulkan wrote:
...Trying to be constructive (I wouldn't be accused to be destructive anymore) ...


Just on the train back home from eurobowl and time on my iPad ...
I usually to not get involved in those kind of threads, but I really have to let you know you failed in this.
I was just reading a very aggressive, very assuming and very accusing post from you, which is for my taste note the tone in a constructive post.

As per my post above I am also not happy with some statements from pippin and had also some discussions during eurobowl with various people including pippin.
I don't want to argue here the various aspects now,but just say that I see this just as a reference proposal and no door is ever closed, and even more important it is not a proposal by the naf, but from the eurobowl captains meeting (though not in unison), just put forward by a naf representative. This is perhaps not seen like that by all others (assuming including also some captains and naf representatives) like that, but that does not hinder me :)

So as is said, no door is or should be closed so please keep arguing your points!
but please less accusing and less assuming reasons why people act they way they do .
Just state what your are unhappy without interpretation or ask them via private channels.

Cheers
Oventa

( I do read most of your posts, but never reply so please don't make me regret making this post)

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:32 am 
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Just re-type to be more precise and less aggresive:

>> NAF officers previously argued they had no relation with Eurobowl. Such statement was made in order to not involve the tournament in their management criticisms. It would be sadly to note that those statements were false indeed. I think is reasonable to point out this issue, and actively ask for this disconnection from NAF and their management.

>> Even being a wasting discussion, Eurobowl is indeed an invitational tournament. Following their participants interest (who included NAF officers) it was not only treated as an exception, but Tournament Approval document was appointed in purpose to allow Eurobowl be NAF. I think is also worthy, for future Eurobowl definition, to point out that NAF sanction of Eurobowl is in fact a nepotism act (defined by being the ruler organism an interested party). Such situations are not allowed in any serious (decent) management.

>> Fixing rulesets to the presented extent, would make Eurobowl "more professional", being its main presented trait and benefit the promotion of networking and players fun. By reducing variations, it would in fact reduce organizers (as players) fun, letting them only to work hard while deciding less. From the outside, present statements seem to promote competitiveness more than players amusement.

>> As an example, one format discussed in Spain to set up team tournaments was the "Points per Team" or the "Obligatory Tier" promoting the addition of at least one/two Tier 3 and one Tier 2 team per formation. It wouldn't be possible with present fixed set up.


On the other hand, I am sorry to assume things and be aggressive. But once I personally discuss about Eurobowl and being accused to use the tournament as an argument, when NAF is not involved (even with all its officers playing it indeed), and finally you found not only they are involved, but pretending to rule out the overall set up. It is hard to remain quiet (again) when the responsibles of NAF change their discourse at their will to achieve what, at the end, is to do basicly what they want anytime.

Having Eurobowl:

!) NAF independent

!) Not NAF sanctioned

!) Ruled by its organizers (defining ruleset in advance)


It would present a real event promoted to network and have fun, independently of powergamer wet dreams.

Saying so, open Eurobowl to be joined to whoever wanted (as USA community did with their tournament) would even be funnier, having (presumably) a small impact in a tournament that rarely would host more than 16 players from the same country (i.e. two teams). In this situation, Eurobowl would effectively fit as open tournament and would eventually be NAF sanctioned with no shadow of interested management from NAF.


My opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:18 pm 
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I was not able to make it to the captains meeting in time but I dont think the scoring system was discussed. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I have talked to many other players and captains about this, and I think we need to change this bullit:

"1 / 0.5 / 0 points scoring for individual matches, with a bonus point for a ‘team win’, and half a bonus point for a ‘team draw’"

I propose something like:

>>1000 / 500 / 0 points scoring for team matches plus 1 / 0.5 / 0 points scoring for individual matches"

This would ensure only one calculation is necessary, a team that wins all there games would be the champions and last but not least it would reduce the importance of the draws in the first couple of rounds.

Note that the results of every individual games would still be extremely important since there would always be team with an equal amount of team wins.

To be a bit categorical I would say there is not a single logically valid downside to changing the system.


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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:56 pm 
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The one thing I have to propose a change to is this:

>>Random round 1 draw, then Swiss (teams, then individuals in both cases)

I think the first round should be based on previous Eurobowl results and not be completely random to make it more fair. Then we won't have the risk of say #1 having more points than #2 just because they faced 5 good opponents and one "bad" while #2 faced 6 good opponents.

Other than that I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:05 pm 
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caracarn wrote:
I think the first round should be based on previous Eurobowl results


I see 2 problems with that:
1. Which previous €Bowls would be counted?
All of them? Only the last 3 ones?
a) Would you take the team's average in points or just count them all together?
b) What about those countries who didn't participate in every €Bowl (like Germany, Austria, Hungary and I think Netherlands in France, Sweden who came out quite strong this year but having only played the very recent Eurobowls) or just in the most recent one?

2. Would there be any method of factoring in a change in players?
The problem is that there are quite some countries with changing Eurobowl teams. The team of 2010 is not the same as the team of 2012. Just speaking of Austria (which otherwise has a very stable Eurobowl team): Only 4 of last year's team played this year. So the team is not the same.

Therefore I don't think it would be a good idea. The swiss draw after round 1 is supposed to pit the strong teams against one another, basing round 1 on previous Eurobowl performances doesn't do that, because of the aforementioned problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:11 pm 
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caracarn wrote:
I think the first round should be based on previous Eurobowl results and not be completely random to make it more fair. Then we won't have the risk of say #1 having more points than #2 just because they faced 5 good opponents and one "bad" while #2 faced 6 good opponents.

+1 to turin
the risk still exists, because from on year to the next, the teams are not always the same. For France for exemple, only 3 of the player in 2013 was there in 2012, of course because it is France, the playing level was the same, but for switzerland (almost same ratio, i guess) i think their level was significally better this year. I don't know for other countries, but since there is no standard selection protocol i don't think the playing level in year x should be linked to year x+1

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:19 pm 
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caracarn wrote:
The one thing I have to propose a change to is this:

>>Random round 1 draw, then Swiss (teams, then individuals in both cases)

I think the first round should be based on previous Eurobowl results and not be completely random to make it more fair. Then we won't have the risk of say #1 having more points than #2 just because they faced 5 good opponents and one "bad" while #2 faced 6 good opponents.

Other than that I like it.

Subject: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)

This was what we did in Copenhagen. In theory I like it - I was the one to propose the rule originally. :)
However it is not without problems. Depending on number of participants and number of rounds played it can actually backfire, so a top team can get an "easy" match up in the final round. Also I think changing the scoring system fixes the problem since a big win will not give you the tournament win unless you win enough team matches. The other problem with the suggestion is that it almost eliminates the chance of a whole series of match ups. There are quite a few teams an the Eurobowl that I haven't played against and I would like it to be a real possibility for social reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:22 pm 
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I think Trippleskull has some good points but the +1000 points arent that elegant. This is the same idea as Trippleskulls presented but I would like divide the scoring into team points and individual points.

Each game give a coach individual points as it always been, Win: 1, Draw: 0.5 and lose: 0
At the end of the match the individual points for the team are summed up. The team with the highest score of individual points gets 10 team points. 5 team points to both teams if it was a draw.
The teams are ranked after Team points. First tiebreaker is individual points. Then the usual tiebreakers...

It would make winning the teampoints the most important thing, but as many teams would be on the same point the individual ponits would still be very important.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:23 pm 
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About the invitational part,
as Pakulkan, i think Eurobowl is definitelly invitational, but the europen is not. The idea to "connect" both appeared this week end in the France team.
What about if the europen results could add some kind of bonus to the eurobowl ? for exemple if the best results of each country in the europen was added to the total tie-breaker of the official team ? It would not turn the eurobowl in an open format, but would please a lot of people which are not in the official teams. allowing them to play for their country.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Pakulkan wrote:
Having Eurobowl:

!) NAF independent

!) Not NAF sanctioned

!) Ruled by its organizers (defining ruleset in advance)


I agree with these 3 points.
edit:
caracarn wrote:
The one thing I have to propose a change to is this:

>>Random round 1 draw, then Swiss (teams, then individuals in both cases)

I think the first round should be based on previous Eurobowl results and not be completely random to make it more fair. Then we won't have the risk of say #1 having more points than #2 just because they faced 5 good opponents and one "bad" while #2 faced 6 good opponents.

Other than that I like it.

i do like this idea.
All nations are not coming for the exact same objective.
Some are clearly coming for the trophy : "top nations" like France, England, Italy,... and choose the best combos of rosters/coachs possible.
Some are just glad to manage to be present (for exemple, NL had many mercenaries, and came with fun rosters like Chaos, Halflings or Slanns, or the ruleset with 8 skills was not bad for slanns or chaos, but most of tier1 were more competive), and what about a rookie nation like Serbia ! with only 6,5 points, i imagine they had 0,5-8,5 rounds against top nations or good nations.

Drawing round 1 from last edition results will help not to miss the "finale" between the 2 first nations (remember last year, no FranceVsItaly)

But, the problem of this will be how to include in this kind of Draw, the nations not present in the previous year.

Maybe, it would be better to do a "mix" of the 2 methods.
I mean, something like drawing the 2-3 first tables from last edition-results only, and then doing it randomly.
So next year we would have :
Table1: England-France
Table2: Italy-Denmark
Table3: Belgium-Spain
if this 6 nations are present again! (if - i don't know Denmark - is not present we could select nation #7 playing in table in table 3, and Belgium in table 2)
and then random draw.

edit
Turin wrote:
I see 2 problems with that:
1. Which previous €Bowls would be counted?
All of them? Only the last 3 ones?

Only last one will be enough :)

And my "mix-solution" would avoid your issue :)

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Last edited by babass on Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Elyoukey wrote:
About the invitational part,
as Pakulkan, i think Eurobowl is definitelly invitational, but the europen is not. The idea to "connect" both appeared this week end in the France team.
What about if the europen results could add some kind of bonus to the eurobowl ? for exemple if the best results of each country in the europen was added to the total tie-breaker of the official team ? It would not turn the eurobowl in an open format, but would please a lot of people which are not in the official teams. allowing them to play for their country.

I do think it won't be fair.
For "small" nations, it's already hard to manage to have a team with mercenaries : how many nation came with no mercenaries this year? and how many selections were completed at the very last minute with support of mercenaries?
And it's even more hard if these small nations are far (and/or badly connected) from the location of the eurobowl.

Imagine if the Fifa would organized a world cup for B-selection. The pool of top nation (Spain, Brazil, Germany,...) is enough big to maek competitive B-selection. But what about a very small country like Iceland?

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:34 pm 
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babass wrote:
And my "mix-solution" would avoid your issue :)


I disagree, because it would only count the last one and doesn't account for changing teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Hi all

Turin is correct. The proposal in the title thread has been modified after a captains' discussion and vote. The TR will be flexible between 105, 110 and 115. That's a fair compromise I feel.

As regards Eurobowl and the 'invitational' issue. That has been discussed at great length previously, the approval principles have been modified and to my knowledge the nations select their Eurobowl teams in a way which has been discussed and agreed within their communities. I'm passionate about Eurobowl and EurOpen together being a NAF supported event.

EurOpen is really important. I like your thinking Elyoukey. I certainly agree that EurOpen needs something to help it be bigger and even better. Much to discuss here I feel. Perhaps a separate thread?

Just to also add here - incredible tournament put on by the Austrians. Well done guys. Had a fantastic time! Thank you so much!

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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Elyoukey wrote:
for exemple if the best results of each country in the europen was added to the total tie-breaker of the official team ? It would not turn the eurobowl in an open format, but would please a lot of people which are not in the official teams. allowing them to play for their country.


I LOVE THIS IDEA!!!

If we encounter problems finding space for enough players i think we would need to grantee every nation a spot however. Or maybe you could give a neutral bonus for teams not represented.


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 Post subject: Re: Eurobowl Future Rules (from 2014)
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:36 pm 
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Would the system with points from the Eur'open not favour the host?
There have been more locals in the Eur'open then from any other country.
Many countries haven't even been represented in the Eur'open.

Maybe you can add the points from the top Eur'open players to their country's based on the number of players from each country.
If each country has 1 player then add the best result. If there are 2 players from each nation, have the best 2 etc.

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