Eurobowl and ETC

[Turin]

On Sunday we received a proposition per mail that should be discussed on a broad level within the whole community. So far my answer was that such a broad discussion would be necessary before giving a definite answer:

Hey guys,

Taking the liberty to contact you in regards to a proposition we have. I've been involved in the ETC (European Team Championships) for a few years now as one of the chairmen. The ETC is the organisation that is hosting the Flames Of War, WHFB and WH40K World Team Championships every year, and this year we come knocking to you guys to see if you would be interested in joining the dance.

Last year we had some 600 players, in a spacious hall that can accomodate even more. We would like to see the event grow, and would offer to host the space to hold the 2014 Eurobowl. This year the ETC will once again be held in Novi Sad, Serbia, and the organisers are very keen to work together regarding Bloodbowl. Of course, the organisation of the event would remain integrally in your hands, we would just be offering the space and opportunity to come play your favorite game together with some 600 other tabletop game fanatics.

Please introduce this idea to the community, discuss, and see where the discussion leads. We're always available for more info, either by mail or via skype, should you have any questions or remarks regarding this.

Hope to hear back from you soon,

Tom in name of the ETC community

[Turin]

Apart from the fact that 2014 would not be possible since it is already decided that Belgium will host the next Eurobowl (looking forward to it), I don't think it is a good idea for the Eurobowl. For the ETC, of course, it would be great, from the Eurobowl perspective I personally oppose it due to the following reasons.

For those who don't know, what the ETC is:
It is the European Team Championship that has been going in the recent couple of years for the tabletop games Warhammer Fantasy and 40K and Flames of War. Last year it was held in Serbia (as it will be 2014) with ~600 participants. My experience with it is actually second hand experience as I know people who have participated in all 3 games.

I don't really think these two events are compatible. The Eurobowl has a long tradition (longer in fact than the ETC) and has some aspects to it that we really like. There are several problematic issues:

• Host nation: In Eurobowl it is more or less universally accepted that the right to host it should have some basis in the most recent result. Several years ago it was the winner of last year, while it is nowadays (after the second Italian Eurobowl that the Italians actually won again) the highest ranking nation that has not yet hosted it (and is willing to). I don't know how it is with the ETC, but it seems unlikely that the Eurobowl tradition would be compatible with ETC procedures.
• Organizational background: While the tournament communities of Warhammer Fantasy and 40K (and to some extent FoW) are pretty intertwined, Blood Bowl on a tournament level has a very different organizational background with the NAF as "Keeper of Records", that has (afaik) no significant link to the warhammer community.
• The spirit: ETC is very competitive. By that I don't mean the way the French, Italian, German, English or other teams at the Eurobowl are competitive, much rather like taking things too serious. In an intense Blood Bowl match between a top italian and a top french coach, it would still be quite common that at half-time both grab a beer, chat a bit and the resume the game. No matter how intense a game of Blood Bowl is (and those are usually the best), it is still considered normal to have a relaxed attitude towards each other (the game might be intense, but I still want to have fun with the guy in front of me). At the ETC there are teams that actually need a referee standing next to their tables all the time.
  I don't think that these two approaches to the game are compatible.

Altogether, I think the Blood Bowl community would not profit from such a cooperation and we should decline and let Eurobowl be a Blood Bowl only event.

[severian]

I am very glad that you are considering a proposition.
We will most likely host some kind of Bloodbowl event this year that is not Eurobowl. So that we all can see how it goes.

As for the points razed:

- Host nation is decided by combined captains council based on offers. They decide upon price, things offered, tourist attractions in the area..... Keep in mind that it is very difficult job to make war gaming tournament for about 700 people. For instance, we have made 3200 pieces of terrain last year, we have a venue that is air conditioned and about 5900 square meters... Not everybody is ready to take this kind of organisation on themselves. This year we have raised a standard of the ETC a lot and we would like to keep it that way.

- Organisation is very different for every system so I dont think that we will have any problems with NAF

- Spirit... It is also very different and individual with each system. I was really happy and satisfied with the atmosphere on the Eurobowl. I believe that a lot of it comes from the clear and simple rules, less FAQ-s, erratas and similar stuff. Clear and unquestionable rules are also responsible for the absence of judges which i beautiful thing . For example, I have noted that games like Flames of war are much less tense because they have batter rules of the game then, for example 40K.

I believe that you should all take time to decide about the ETC. I invite you to join us this year to see how does it looks like and then we can talk about pros and cons of it .

Thank you all for wonderful time in Vienna. I will do my best to bring a team to Belgium next year ! And we will practice !

[juergen]

I don't think Eurobowl should consider ETC. For me part of the Eurobowl is to go to different countries (unfortunately for me, not in the last few years). I will never forget England somewhere in the plains with this beatiful landscape, playing in a castle in italy and so on. I can't imagine going to the same place over and over again.

To bad they missed the deadline to apply for the NAF World Cup III - as WC II showed plenty of room is needed.

[Pipey]

I spoke to Severian and one other of the Serbian team this weekend. In response to the proposal I said I would speak to the Belgian organisers and ask what they would prefer i.e. to host, or to instead join ETC.

I think it's quite clear that Belgium would prefer to host. Completely understandable; they've waited a long time and earned the right.

So from here I agree this is the way to go - discuss the proposal as an option from 2016 onward (after NAFWC).

A NAF supported open team event at 2014 ETC sounds like an excellent idea for now. Severian - any further advice you need about that, don't hesitate to get in touch.

[azzroag]

is ETC sponsored or supported by GW ?

if its yes the answer is never for me.

other point : have you ever made a tounament wit w and bb pkayer in the same place ? at the end of every we like this warhammer guys want to kill the bb guys besauce they cry too much

i don t think that bb and warhammer or w40k can leave together. public are very different.

my 2 cents

[Boneless]

By joining the etc you take away the fight for host, for Wales and I guess Belgium going into the last game playing for the chance to host was our euro bowl,

If you hand over to the etc you take that away from some of the smaller nations.

[Podfrey]

It's an interesting one for me personally as the ETC grew out of a discussion between myself and two of the founders of the ETC over a couple of bottles of vodka at a tournament in Denmark - in fact the ETC has EuroBowl to thank as its initial template. At the time I wondered about the ETC would turn out and how/if it could be integrated with EuroBowl.

My current thoughts haven't changed that much since then, and I still think its a 50/50:

Pro:
- economy of scale for hosting venue/accommodation
- we all play "toy soldiers", the others are just different flavours
- it might bring in some of the further east countries (Poland, Russia) who have strong WFB teams

Con:
- not everyone likes the attitude of some Warhammer players - it can get fractious as the rules / gaming area aren't as clear cut
- the switch between countries would be on a different criteria
- the weekend wouldn't be a total Blood Bowl feast (though some might see that as a good thing)

Overall I fall in the camp that would say if joining ETC doesn't add more than it takes away, then stay as is. However if someone can demonstrate more benefit then perhaps, even for a trial year, it should be something that is worth going for.

[babass]

I think it's too late to try to merge both Eurobowl & ETC for 2014.
But why not in 2015?
Normally there is no eurobowl in 2015 because of WC.

[Thadrin]

2015 is a World Cup year.

I'm personally against the idea. I feel that BB would be a sideline event to the Warhammer players, with less control over the area where the tournament would take place and so on. I feel that as a smaller community we're better off doing things our own way rather than being a sideline for a larger event.

[Joemanji]

I've played at multi-game events, and BB is very much looked upon as the niche sideline game. We are usually stuffed into a side room, forced to adhere to points systems that make no sense for BB, and to a time schedule designed for the other systems (leaving us standing around or being forced to rush).

Also, what is the point? Let us not pretend that we are going to talk to any of the other WHB or 40K players, or they to us. There are enough BB players to get around without adding in 400 more strangers.

[babass]

2015 is a World Cup year.

I'm personally against the idea. I feel that BB would be a sideline event to the Warhammer players, with less control over the area where the tournament would take place and so on. I feel that as a smaller community we're better off doing things our own way rather than being a sideline for a larger event.

WC is an open tourney
Eurobowl is closed.
Both tourneys have nothing in common..

[driesfield]

@ Babass:

It was agreed back in 2007 that no Eurobowl would be hosted on the years of the World Cup.

[Garrick]

Like the Welsh, Scotland is one of the smaller countries with a significantly smaller playing population and not currently in contention to win Eurobowl.

Our realistic goal at every Eurobowl is to do well enough to host the following year, so I would vote against joining with ETC.

[Topper]

I think the way to go for the ETC would be to make a good BB side tourney there - and see how it develops. I think the Eurobowl have too strong a tradition as it is to change, not only the rather diplomatic and lighthearted approach, but also the time of the tourney. If I understand correctly it would have to be in the summer instead?

I would love to see Serbia play again next year, and I don´t think there´s reason for an "us (Blood Bowlers)" vs "them (Other Gamers)" discussion. Just looks silly..

But it is true that most BB players have a well funded dislike for the GW - due to their practice and "work" with the community.
Therefor any link to GW would have to be out of the question.