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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:30 pm 
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Chaps, I certainly agree that a vote in the captain's forum is the ultimate endgame for this, and that the decision should be taken soon. But 'soon' on a European Blood Bowl level is not next week. Last year's debate went on for weeks, and also Joe sent out his note to captains a while ago now, however less than half of the nations taking part this year have made any sort of public comment as of yet. We are simply not ready. I began a thread on the English site last week, and I'm not satisfied I have sufficiently taken the temperature our community yet (and the English respond quickly to these things, not just our eight, our community). I simply don't think we're ready to vote, and don't want to vote on the wrong question or come to the wrong decision because we rush. We've bags of time.

I suggest that the Belgians chair the captain's meeting next week, and that we set aside an hour for this. I think we invite Joe to join us to open the meeting; setting out the 'problem' and explaining the reasoning behind his solution. We can then debate the issue, decide what it is we wish to vote upon (Joe's solution, a different solution, do we need a solution, whatever) and what conditions lead to change (I felt this was a problem last year; we must know what the vote means before we conduct it).

We will all come out of that meeting with a full understanding of the issue and what we're voting upon. Then we can talk our wider communities, debate, vote and still have this all wrapped up by Christmas, a full 34 months before we arrive at the next tournament to be decided (I am still assuming the present system remains in place for 2016).

Since we have an opportunity for a face to face meeting, we'd be daft not to use it. We can accomplish far more in person in an hour than on a website not everyone uses in a language we don't all have as a mother tongue in a fortnight. The Internet is rarely best.


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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:54 pm 
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I can't help thinking that there should be a published written document to view somewhere.

Either produced and sent to whom ever is concerned?

Emailed to whom ever is concerned?

Possibly 3 documents over a period of time. With the respected communities allowed to contribute to the document (with a word limit). Then for each community to agree or disagree with parts etc of others.

Document 1 - Proposals
Document 2 - Amendments and deletions
Document 3 - Final Proposals to be voted on.

Until every thing is narrowed down by say the 3rd document and then all communities come together to pass resolution at a special conference.

Does this sound too formal?

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 Post subject: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:39 am 
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If a NAF representative is needed, I can join the meeting. I agree that it's better to have a meeting than a vote on the forum. In the meanwhile the captains should check their own communities talking about this issue

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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:54 am 
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Smurf wrote:
I can't help thinking that there should be a published written document to view somewhere.


Are there minutes taken and published for Captain's meetings? If not, should there be?

I'd argue that they should. Given that the EuroBowl does not really fall under NAF jurisdiction the Captains effectively form a EuroBowl committee. Some formalisation and oversight for the community would be good.


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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:56 am 
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Happy to volunteer my touch-typing/minute-taking skillz for the meeting if required.

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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:09 am 
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Minutes (,PowerPoints and flip charts) are not necessary here. It's a one issue meeting for which we've a clear goal, the output of which is then directly communicated to the community prior to a vote (probably as the captains walk out of the door). Let's not gild the lily.

Beppe would be an ideal chair, the hosts probably have work to do anyway. In effect it doesn't matter who it is, so long as it's not allowed to become a 7 hour epic and that we leave the room with a clear vote ahead.


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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Sorry to be add more to think about, but playing Devil's Adovcate for a minute...

There is a section of the conversation here looking to ensure that smaller nations who may not be party to dicussions on this site are included within the process of thinking about this issue.

It is forseeable, as Phil said, that the Captains of some of these nations are not going to be native English speakers. To ask them to listen/debate/conclude on a subject which will likely take place in english in 1hr seems to be just as non-inclusive as the current situation.

I would suggest that either you need to make sure the people you are looking to capture the opinion of have some material in advance they can translate or you need two meetings or one meeting with two sections - one meeting/section to outline what is going to be discussed with suitable time for non-english speakers to digest and get responses in english prepared and then one meeting/section to actually discuss the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:12 pm 
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Purplegoo wrote:
Minutes are not necessary here.


Meetings like this are exactly where minutes are needed, so that different points of view can be aired and the results of a vote publicised. This can be written up afterwards by someone who was there, but it tends to be more efficient done at the meeting.

What we are in danger of seeing here is because there is no-one particularly in charge of the Eurobowl that whoever states their case most often and most forcefully is in danger of getting their way.

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Last edited by sann0638 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:47 pm 
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We're not having a vote, it's a discussion about what we need to decide (vote) upon. That output then becomes immediately obvious to anyone not there because they're then called upon to input into the vote. Minutes are just a duplication of effort. This isn't a committee meeting, it's a debate on a single issue with a clear, transparent output.

I'm not sure I subscribe to the general point either. We're all going in on an even footing, and a vote is about as even as you can get, whomever shouts loudest. Hyperbole around he thing won't get us anywhere.

We have seen more movement over the last couple of years to move the event from an ungoverned, loose arrangement to something with more of a formal structure, first with the rules standardisation and now this conversation. I'm all for this principle, but if the practice becomes lengthy documentation and drenched in procedure, no one gains. There is a happy medium that we seem to be organically finding.


Last edited by Purplegoo on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:52 pm 
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Loki wrote:
It is forseeable, as Phil said, that the Captains of some of these nations are not going to be native English speakers. To ask them to listen/debate/conclude on a subject which will likely take place in english in 1hr seems to be just as non-inclusive as the current situation.

I would suggest that either you need to make sure the people you are looking to capture the opinion of have some material in advance they can translate or you need two meetings or one meeting with two sections - one meeting/section to outline what is going to be discussed with suitable time for non-english speakers to digest and get responses in english prepared and then one meeting/section to actually discuss the issue.
This is exactly what I did in sending this open letter individually to each and every Eurobowl captain. So they have time to translate the letter if needs be and can come to the event itself with some idea of what we are discussing.

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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:27 pm 
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I think this may literally be the first time that I have heard someone argue that a reasonably important meeting should not be minutes.

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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:25 pm 
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Yeah, I've lost count of the number of meetings I've been involved in that have reached a consensus only to realise over the following days/weeks that everyone had a different understanding of what they agreed to. With potential language and translation issues, minutes are a simple and easy way to clarify the results of the meeting. Any misunderstanding is then more readily identified.
Equally, it's a single document that can be distributed to everyone, rather than relying on Team Captains briefing it out to individual countries.

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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:30 pm 
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sann0638 wrote:
I think this may literally be the first time that I have heard someone argue that a reasonably important meeting should not be minutes.


And I never thought I’d get into the basics of running a successful and efficient meeting on TFF!

I’m sure no-one is against the idea of minutes in principle. In practice, in this case, none of the reasons for which you should take minutes are not already being covered by holding the (single issue) meeting at all and committing to a vote thereafter. It would simply be duplicating work and adding a body into an already full room. Remember; minutes are not about writing down everything everybody says. Just because a lot of meetings people attend are inefficient, we don't need to repeat that mistake here.

I think a line should be drawn on this particular aside. Another reason why meeting in person always trumps the Internet, threads do go awry all too often. I'm done, at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:09 pm 
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Purplegoo wrote:
adding a body into an already full room. Remember; minutes are not about writing down everything everybody says. Just because a lot of meetings people attend are inefficient, we don't need to repeat that mistake here.
I think a line should be drawn on this particular aside. Another reason why meeting in person always trumps the Internet, threads do go awry all too often. I'm done, at least.


To be clear - I don't care who takes the minutes, it was an offer from someone who is good at it.
If there is a consensus about Beppe chairing the meeting (which seems sensible), then it is his call as to how the meeting is administrated.
If anyone is against Beppe chairing the meeting, then they should probably chip in sometime in the next week.

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 Post subject: Re: Open letter re: the future of Eurobowl hosting
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:17 pm 
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Joemanji wrote:
Loki wrote:
It is forseeable, as Phil said, that the Captains of some of these nations are not going to be native English speakers. To ask them to listen/debate/conclude on a subject which will likely take place in english in 1hr seems to be just as non-inclusive as the current situation.

I would suggest that either you need to make sure the people you are looking to capture the opinion of have some material in advance they can translate or you need two meetings or one meeting with two sections - one meeting/section to outline what is going to be discussed with suitable time for non-english speakers to digest and get responses in english prepared and then one meeting/section to actually discuss the issue.
This is exactly what I did in sending this open letter individually to each and every Eurobowl captain. So they have time to translate the letter if needs be and can come to the event itself with some idea of what we are discussing.

Is the expectation that it is only the propsal in the OP (bidding) that is discussed or a wider seach for comment on that and more generally on the subject of finding out how people feel the EB should be homed post 2015/2016.

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