New "bowl" box by years end AKA Dreadball

[Ithilkir]

Well I have to admit as much as I like the look of Dreadball I have little to no time to invest in BloodBowl these days so another fantasy sports board game has no chance of making me invest money in it. I love the look of it I have to admit and some of the models are really nice but time/money says stick to one product for now.

In regards to why Elfball never took off to me it was much the same thing. BB is the grand daddy of fantasy sports games and picking it up would have met learning new rules and finding people who also wanted to try another type of sports game. It does have a bit of a sense of "Urgh.. how many stats?" to it when you look at the stat line compared to BB (4 for BB, 6 for EB).

I have to admit and as people have said the problem with trying to show it to people is simply the look of it. "Elfball" it's a horrible name lets be honest, it just reeks of geek, take the two sentences

"In my spare time I play a board game called Blood Bowl"
"In my spare time I play a board game called Elfball"

I know which one just sounds better for sure.

Unfortunately it also suffers from looking a bit amateurish iin production at the moment which is a damned shame. If I type in Elfball to Google I get the elfball.org website (not sure if this is the official one but appears to be as much) which is pretty horrendous in design and functionallity, again it adds to the hump that people have to get over to be interested in a new game. The board also just looks like something that was made up in Paint with massive yellow circles and a bland texture.

There's also the initial appearance of "What do I do?". In BB you know it's based on American Football and you know that there's an endzone and you get the ball in there before you even know how to play the game (mostly) but Elfball (and Dreadball) you look at the pitch and think "Eh?".

However!!!! Elfball from what I've heard and know about is a criminally underrated game as it is very good but it does deserve a fresh coat of paint and really should be much more popular that it is, but as others have said the marketing/branding of the game doesn't do it justice and yes, we're all shallow enough to be influenced by how something looks.

[sann0638]

"In my spare time I play a board game called Blood Bowl"
"In my spare time I play a board game called Elfball"

Well, I suppose I should chip in here. I don't tend to use either of these sentences, despite doing both quite a lot, as both would need a bit more explaining.

I'm surprised that the "pizza box" problem exists, as there isn't actually a picture of it anywhere on Impact's site - the pics are of the board and the minis etc, so the only time you would see the box is if you were talking to someone who has the game, in which case they'd be able to explain it. I'm not sure I (or anyone else) used the BB box any more either, given the number of custom pitches etc there are around. Personal opinion, anyway. One good reason for having a nice box would be to get people to stock it in the shop.

Again, the board stuff is subjective. Comparing it to the BB board, would you say it looks substantially worse? Can you be more specific, I think Tom and Chris would appreciate some constructive criticism?

And on the website, this was put together as a fan site by juergen on here, and again if there were specific problems you'd found (rather than "it's horrible") I'm sure he'd be interested, and keen that people are interested in it!

Personally, I'd be amazed if Dreadball took off beyond the original Kickstarter, but maybe the sci-fi aspect is enough of a hook, as I think (though am happy to be corrected) that 40k is more popular than WFB for that among other reasons.

All this is slightly off the original topic though, so happy to further discussion in the Elfball forum if people are interested.

Mike

[Chris]

Hell if it is successfull Hasbro would probably be happy to sell a version (single piece pre painted models no doubt).

[juergen]

If I type in Elfball to Google I get the elfball.org website (not sure if this is the official one but appears to be as much) which is pretty horrendous in design and functionallity,

I created elfball.org to help promote the game online. It is not the official Elfball Webseite, it's a Elfball Fanpage with has been approved by Impact. This was very important to me, this shows that Impact supports the community rather then send C&D Letters. I am aware of some flaws on the site but it's the first time some calls it horrendous - I would be intrested why you find it horrendous (feel free to pm me, don't want to hijack the thread).

What got me intrested in Dreadbowl (not yet a baker) is not that it's another BB. It reminded me to a game I loved to play in my childhood -> Speedball 2.

[Dr. Von Richten]

Dr. V... I totally get your perspective. Believe me, I have a large collection of games that don't get enough play. I completely understand that for those that have limited gaming time you'd not want to two games of a similar genre. This I understand. What I had an issue with is the people that that won't try Elfball because it looks different (hex bases, single scoring hex, six players, less than full team movement, conditional dice rolls) but will try Dreadball which has exact same features.

Ah, then we are in no disagreement here!

[Heff]

My problem with this (not having checked it out today) is that they have got a SF themed game and then used fantasy races. Come on guys humans (fine no problem) then Orcs and Dwarves and Skaven. Oh look the Orc team has gobblin sized players.

They could have done

Hivers, Droyne, Aslan, Kkree Vager and god knows what else from Traveller.
Kzinti, Pierson Pupetiers (two headed tripod beasties anyone) Outsiders(possibly not) Trinocs from Nivens known Space
Cyborgs, Culture drones, big gas giant octopus beasties that travel in suits and use repulsor lifts, Intelligent shades of the Colour Blue and I don't know what else, Having not read a lot of science fiction recently.

But no, they need a game to get a section of the BB crowds money so we get fantasy races in space. BORING BORING BORING and BORING. Safe corporate bullcrap play and not for me.

[Shteve0]

The underlying assumption here - ergo, that the vast majority of Dreadball backers have prior awareness of Elfball or even Bloodbowl - is dangerous, and potentially a real red herring. The question is not why customer base X would snub Elfball for Dreadball, focussing your attention on their similarities; but rather where Elfball and Dreadball are different both in content and marketing.

For example, while I have a vague memory of looking at Elfball in the past, I'm not actually aware of the box contents. By contrast, Dreadball's marketing campaign is fairly aggressive, which in a commercial sense is no bad thing.

Second, it would be commercially irresponsible to overlook feedback that the street appeal of Dreadball - that it references games from fans' youth, as well as contemporary interest in the 'Tron' series relaunch - is far greater than Elfball. This is purely a surface assesment, yes, but try asking yourself why tobacco companies fight so hard to resist attempts to curtail their freedom in advertising or, more recently, even displaying their logo on packaging.

Third, I'd point out that Mantic's background is in producing plastic miniatures that represent bulk value, that can harvested for other game systems with little modification. I'd suggest in this latest venture they are pitching primarily to their own customer base, with the established FF market only a secondary benefit group. They're competing in a market that actually differs significantly to Elfball because of this. Mantic's original strategy for their fantasy line was very much the bulk sales market, an area where customers will look to buy several hundred minis in a sitting and are prepared to sacrifice a degree of quality for give on price. As such I'd suggest that the bulk of their customer base is in their mid teens, where WHFB gamers become aware of other producers and start to look for cheaper alternatives.

We're an odd market, us FF players. Generally speaking, most of us are extremely quality conscious, shop around, are working family men age and might buy only 20-40 minis a year. We're happy to spend more on a figure because we buy them so infrequently. I'd suggest that many players also lead 'normal' lives detatched from the gaming scene, play bloodbowl with a beer and consider BB one of a very small number of classically 'uncool' hobbies in which they partake - I've heard the broad phrase "my wife allows me one geek night a week" or similar more than once.

Conversely, we're also fiercely loyal, relatively well off, aim to support small startups and are suckers for limited release items - there's a high value secondary market for our toys, and anyone perceived to be devaluing our collectibles or attacking our community is wont to experience a pretty major backlash.

Does that make sense?

[Shteve0]

Intelligent shades of the Colour Blue

Genius!

[Heff]

Intelligent shades of the Colour Blue

Genius!

Douglas Adams

[landrover]

I'd suggest that many players also lead 'normal' lives detatched from the gaming scene, play bloodbowl with a beer and consider BB one of a very small number of classically 'uncool' hobbies in which they partake - I've heard the broad phrase "my wife allows me one geek night a week" or similar more than once.

Does that make sense?

Mine refers to it as "playing dollies"

[Chris]

Mine calls it 'Taufow'

[Borzag]

My problem with this (not having checked it out today) is that they have got a SF themed game and then used fantasy races. Come on guys humans (fine no problem) then Orcs and Dwarves and Skaven. Oh look the Orc team has gobblin sized players.

They could have done

Hivers, Droyne, Aslan, Kkree Vager and god knows what else from Traveller.
Kzinti, Pierson Pupetiers (two headed tripod beasties anyone) Outsiders(possibly not) Trinocs from Nivens known Space
Cyborgs, Culture drones, big gas giant octopus beasties that travel in suits and use repulsor lifts, Intelligent shades of the Colour Blue and I don't know what else, Having not read a lot of science fiction recently.

But no, they need a game to get a section of the BB crowds money so we get fantasy races in space. BORING BORING BORING and BORING. Safe corporate bullcrap play and not for me.

I take it you haven't seen the full scope of Mantic then

The races they're showing (Corporation, ForgeFathers, Orx Marauders, Veer-Min) are all faces from Warpath, their SF mass battle game. It's a tie-in to their big game, in the same way that GW's BB is a tie-in to GW's Warhammer (don't try and dispute this).

Anyway, on topic... still in two minds about this game. On the one hand, as a big TRON fan I *LOVE* the aesthetics of the game. The players, the pitch, the oddball scoring.... BRILLIANT. And its small size is a huge bonus for me as I'm a reluctant yellow-belt painter (edging on brown thanks to patient Demon-winning friends), so handfuls of minis is all I do these days. But on the other hand, like others have mentioned, I dropped out of the BB scene for all but one tournament a year due to lack of time (and Sydney's massive, massive transport & road logistics issues). I somehow doubt I'd be able to commit to a Dreadball league, even one that I ran (and given the sheer amount of BB only devotees here in Sydney, I would *have* to run it).

Anyway, I'm a primary modeller, so maybe will wait it out and make my own kit for this if the rules are good. Every sign I've seen points to yes

[Aflo]

My problem with this (not having checked it out today) is that they have got a SF themed game and then used fantasy races. Come on guys humans (fine no problem) then Orcs and Dwarves and Skaven. Oh look the Orc team has gobblin sized players.

They could have done

Hivers, Droyne, Aslan, Kkree Vager and god knows what else from Traveller.
Kzinti, Pierson Pupetiers (two headed tripod beasties anyone) Outsiders(possibly not) Trinocs from Nivens known Space
Cyborgs, Culture drones, big gas giant octopus beasties that travel in suits and use repulsor lifts, Intelligent shades of the Colour Blue and I don't know what else, Having not read a lot of science fiction recently.

But no, they need a game to get a section of the BB crowds money so we get fantasy races in space. BORING BORING BORING and BORING. Safe corporate bullcrap play and not for me.

I take it you haven't seen the full scope of Mantic then

The races they're showing (Corporation, ForgeFathers, Orx Marauders, Veer-Min) are all faces from Warpath, their SF mass battle game. It's a tie-in to their big game, in the same way that GW's BB is a tie-in to GW's Warhammer (don't try and dispute this).

That as it may be, the criticism could then just as easily be levelled at their SF mass battle game. I'm with Heff on this one: something original might have spurred me to buy a set for conversion parts, as it is there's just no appeal for me, I won't be buying and I'm disappointed in Mantic for taking the easy route and dispensing with imagination.

[Chris]

That as it may be, the criticism could then just as easily be levelled at their SF mass battle game. I'm with Heff on this one: something original might have spurred me to buy a set for conversion parts, as it is there's just no appeal for me, I won't be buying and I'm disappointed in Mantic for taking the easy route and dispensing with imagination.

I think it was a sensible decision though. There have been other speedball style games (e.g. battleball) which haven't made much impact. So why not take races gamers have a history of buying and make them play speedball?

Personally I hope it is very successful - why? The system from what I have read is a fun and above all short game. I reckon it will interest casual gamers more than bloodbowl which is a bit heavy.

And finally we have an entire cottage industry in making 'x'ball models. If this takes off I would hope Impact, Greebo, Neomics etc could make a few $'s on the back of it releasing the types of Sci Fi teams they may not make (so shades of blue, robots, paralympians, etc).

[Chris]

I'm a primary modeller, so maybe will wait it out and make my own kit for this if the rules are good. Every sign I've seen points to yes

If ever a game called for a board illuminated by led's, this is it!

Thoughts on how to do it? Clearly blue LED's, clear plastic? base, how many LED's?

Others reckon a normal lightbox with the coloured acrlyic over the top. While I can see the simplicity is it the best solution?

For that matter should the bases be lit up? Looking at the models the best way I can imagine currently is cutting them at the waist, putting a battery in there and wires down the legs to an LED mounted in the clear plastic base. Turning them off and on though is probably a bit beyond me! (Would probably attach the player halves with magnets to enable battery changes.)

Rules wise - they look good and Jake T has form as a designer of simply fast games (pretty much his design philosiphy). However i doubt it has the long term playability of blood bowl as a consequnce (going on 24 years for me now - you would think I would ahve got a bit better in that time!)