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 Post subject: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:28 pm 
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As I am hoping to run an Elfball Tournament on the the 19th June, I want to establish a rules set that people will be happy with and that will allow most games to finish in about 75mins.

The rules used at the Swindon tournament were fun but I felt needed some tweaking.

I felt that 120 points was too limiting and also meant that some games were won by a few lucky/unluck rolls. The loss of a player or two was devastating and seemed to lead to a one-sided game. Although, this was offset if the team getting shoed had potions. These often brought players back stronger than before (very OB1). I think that using 150 points would encourage a more tactical approach, as a deeper bench and more side-line help would make the 'simply remove your opponent from the pitch' tactic less viable as a winning style of play. (I also think considerably more experience would help avoid the shoeing in the first place, but I like the idea of wider choice 150 points brings.)

I also like the idea of using the 2-minute warning cards to fix the number of turns in a game instead of a time limit. This stops you from failing to score by virtue of a slow opponent. (This is not a comment on the Swindon tournament, but something that I have seen people suffer from in other tournaments.) The problem with this is the financial outlay for players as 1 deck per 2 players would be need for the tournament.

Another point would be scoring. We discussed in Swindon possible abuse of the card system. I like the idea of cards in a tie-break situation, but not as part of the points. Personally, I do not see holding the ball for most of the match as a key to winning the game. As such, I do not see it being a good scoring factor. Perhaps using the number of 'no special event cards' as a tie-break total over the tournament would work, as it identifies the player that has reach were they are with the least 'assistance'.

I think that in terms of a tournament the optional rules for face-off and * = 2 successes are a given to reduce time. (These did work very well in the Swindon tournament.)

Another question I would ask peoples oppinions on is should opponent removals from the pitch count in scoring? I'm on the fence on this as Elfball to me is more of a finesse game than other games, but the ability to pick off opponents is still an important part of the game.

And lastly, Wizard or no Wizard? What are the aguements for and against?

I would appreciate any comment/discussion of the points I have raise in my poorly organised brain-dump.

Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:02 pm 
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The card system is a bit odd... You get more points the longer you hang on to the elfball.

If you score quickly, or you steal the ball from the opponent and score, you may get less tourney points than a player who scores in a longer timeframe - is this desirable?

How about a score system based on the length of time taken to win? e.g. 100 points for winning and bonus points for doing it quickly. This could offset the bonus points some teams earn for removing opposing players?

The games are timed and all start together so you could work out a bonus points value which decreases every 10-15 minutes of play?

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:36 pm 
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Please keep in mind the original points for the cards were ONLY supposed to count for the loser and for ties.

The object was to have a way to give these players points for how "in the game" they were.

It was a change to the rules to allow them for the team winning for the UK event.

I really believe if you go back to the original rules of only allowing those card points for the losing or tieing teams you accomplish their purpose.

Holding onto the ball has risks as the ball carrier can move only ever other turn ... so stalling is just not as effective of a strategy to get the 100 points for winning.

I don't like the idea personally of rewarding fast games ... and I don't think the card point system for having the ball encourages stalling if you remove the changed rules for how they work.

As for the Two Minute Warning decks ... I'm still working on finding a new printer for these. In the future when I have a reliable source I could work with tournament organizers to bulk purchase these for a big discount and then it becomes part of the entry fee (ie if you bring your own ... you get a discount to the entry fee). If you don't you get one from the organizer as part of your entry fee.

Tom

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:04 pm 
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Please keep in mind the original points for the cards were ONLY supposed to count for the loser and for ties. The object was to have a way to give these players points for how "in the game" they were. It was a change to the rules to allow them for the team winning for the UK event. I really believe if you go back to the original rules of only allowing those card points for the losing or tieing teams you accomplish their purpose.


Agree with all this - thought I would experiment with the points system, but I don't think it worked that well.

That said, a tiebreaker is needed, and casualties is a good one, although there is a lot more skill in scoring with lots of players still on the pitch!

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:12 pm 
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OK, I have had a couple of games against Rab and have thought of the following rules for my tournament in June:

These are HEAVILY based on Sann0368's rules used in Swindon earlier this month, which in turn were based on Tom's rules used at GenCon.

    Teams have a 150 point cap. The 2 optional teams are allowed and so is the Horror and Impcrusher. (Personally I felt 120 didn't have enough depth to keep the game competitive after a few lucky tackles removed players from one side.)

    I'm going to create a countdown deck of 56 cards. (In future this will be replace with the 2-minute warning deck from Impact!.) Each player takes a card at the beginning of their turn.

    The test ends when either one team scores or the deck runs out.

    Scoring:
      Scoring = 100pts
      Each opposing player removed during the game = 2pts (This will need to be kept track of as I think that potioned players should count)
      In the case of a loss or a draw, you get 1pt for each card you have collected from your turns. The idea of this is that rather than scoring for having the ball, your score based on the amount of time you could stop you opponent from scoring.
      And as a tie-breaker for the title, player with the least points against them is dclared the winner.

I would seriously appreciate any comments on this, as I really want the tournament to be fun for all involved.

Cheers,

Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:04 pm 
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Sounds Good!

So games will last a maximum of 26 turns each... I'll try and playtest some games with Sann & Charon but this sounds OK in terms of length.

Just thinking off the top of my head but for a win, how about 100pts, plus 26 points minus the number of cards collected, plus 2 points for each player removed as mentioned? Draws and Losses kept the same.

My assumption is that a strong coach should be able to score faster against a weaker coach, where as the score may take longer if the 2 coaches are more closely matched.

Having the Cas in there still will also help balance scores for the bash-orientated teams, if they want to win by clearing the field.

Any thoughts on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:58 am 
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I think that sums up the discussion we had around our games the other night. Sounds like a good set of rules (although I still think we should include my suggestion that no-one is allowed to field Hunters against me :wink: ).

Just to clarify, though, is the 100pts for each time you score a Goal, or just overall for winning a game? I'm thinking of tied games where each player has scored.

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:03 am 
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I think this is for tourneys where you only play to the first goal. This is where it's hard to judge how much better one coach was over another.

Scoring systems are much easier if you play more than one test - the 'stronger' coach should be the one to win more goals :)

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:06 am 
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Rab - you missed the part where I said that the test ends when one team scores. ;)

Spikey - half of 56 is normally 28! :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:12 am 
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antipixi wrote:
Spikey - half of 56 is normally 28! :roll:


Nearly got there! :D

What do you think about a 'better' coach being able to score faster? Is this a fair assumption in your experience?

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:00 pm 
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Spiky wrote:
What do you think about a 'better' coach being able to score faster? Is this a fair assumption in your experience?
I don't agree with this. I think fast scoring normally means one coach got lucky (or the inverse). One of the reasons Elfball is a good game is because of the back and forth that even a single goal attempt has. If someone scores quickly it is most likely Lady Luck intervening.

Galak

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:00 pm 
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I'm just trying to get a handle on how to measure the victory margin for single test games. I'm not sure counting casualties alone is the best approach, as I think that might favour some teams over others?

That said, I'm having trouble thinking of any other indications we would have in a match that would identify that one coach was substantially better than another :(

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Spiky wrote:
That said, I'm having trouble thinking of any other indications we would have in a match that would identify that one coach was substantially better than another :(


One option that could be consider if using the card deck so that it wouldn't have an overly massive effect on the event would be to take the number of cards left in the Elfball deck and divide by 5 rounded down and give those points to the winner. So 100 points + (number of cards left in Elfball deck / 5 (round all fractions down)).

I'd be interested to give that overall system a work:

Game ends with 1st goal / When Elfball deck runs out / or Time is Called
100 points for a win + (number of cards left in Elfball deck / 5 (round all fractions down))
1 point to a loser or tie for each No Event card they drew during the game
2 points for each player in opponent's Ejected, Recovery & Injury box AT END OF GAME (regardless of how they ended up there)

This would be an interesting way to do the game ... would encourage brutality and yet at the same time not stalling ... I like it.

Galak

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:12 pm 
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That sounds like the sort of system I'm looking for.

I'll trial it at the tournament on the 19th of June and see how it goes.

The question is would it be possible to get sets of the new edition of the '2-minute warning' deck to the UK for then?

Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Elfball Tournament Rules Discussion
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:20 pm 
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antipixi wrote:
That sounds like the sort of system I'm looking for.

I'll trial it at the tournament on the 19th of June and see how it goes.

The question is would it be possible to get sets of the new edition of the '2-minute warning' deck to the UK for then?

Chris


In theory yes I should be able to do so. You need like 9 to 10 decks right?

We could talk about an INCREDIBLY discounted rate (like my cost) to get you 10 decks which you could then offer up for sale at the end of the event. Whatever didn't sell ... Gavin could take home with him.

Tom

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