Does size really matter?

[mzukerman]

So the LIBBL is currently in its sixth season. We have grown from the original 12 teams into the 22 that we have right now and we are apparently taking reservations already for next season. This brings us close to the size limit I kind of had in my head when we started this league. I always thought 24 was the magic number. Easy to schedule, not too large to manage.

Now I know there are a lot of leagues out there that are larger than we are. My question is what issues are you seeing with the size of the league? Are there more chances someone flakes out? Problems between coaches? Harder to keep everyone up with their games? OBBLM limitations? We play in a game store that could absorb a larger league in theory, but I'd have to run it by the owner.

I do the lion's share of the work - league administration, newsletter/magazine writing and publishing, moderating conversations, etc. I could conceivably name a deputy commissioner although I'm not sure how I'd divvy up the responsibilities. I like the creative side (kind of need it as a stress relief actually). And I'm not 100% sure if I'd get a volunteer. I don't want this to turn so large that it becomes too much time for me to manage (or someone else for that matter).

Anyway, thoughts from those that are in leagues bigger than 24 teams?

[mzukerman]

Bump... looking for advice from the bigger leagues on the boards.

[hotpanda40k]

Currently running a league myself that has grown from 12 to 16 and are about to start our 4th season. Once over 16 teams I feel that the league should be divided into two divisions. The reason for this is to prevent a large chunk of teams all being tied for points and folks making it on tie breaking mechanisms (head-to-head, net TD, Net Cas). The divisions would create a smaller pool of opponents while making the games played with in it mean more. I was thinking about going with two eight divisions with one game against each coach in your division. Then 3 games of cross divisional play for a total of 10 games played in the regular season. This is where I sit in terms of my league and similar issues relating to size. Overall I feel that a 24 man league should be split into 3 divisions as per my reason above.

[gregory_n_white]

Suggestion: Split into divisions (vertical divisions with promotion and relegation, not horizontal divisions where teams are randomly split into 2 groups).


Why:
1. Shorter seasons. With long seasons, teams not fighting for the title lose interest. If a team is battered too badly coaches have a long time to wait to restart. The outcome is that coaches can become disinterested and flaky.
2. Avoids new teams and new coaches getting shredded by more experienced teams. Im co-commissioner at MBBL and we now have 32+ coaches in 4 divisions (currently two Division 3's with promotion and relegation split between them). New coaches start in Div 3, any coach that starts a new TV100 team goes back to Div 3. It (generally) stops major TV mismatches. In theory a coach could be relegated out of Div 2 with a monster team, but its unlikely and suggests they are incapable of doing much damage anyway.
3. Similar to point 1 - relegations and promotion battles create much more interest than just title races - keep many more coaches intersted. Having 3 divisional winners also shares the glory.


So our experience at MBBL: We have Div 1, 2 and 3. Currently we have two Divisions in Div 3. We wanted to avoid a 4th tier as it would have taken too long for a team to get (potentially) from bottom to a top div title shot. A shorter journey encourages people to try new teams and allows the cream to rise quicker.

[mzukerman]

Thanks guys, We've always been multiple divisions. I keep the seasons at 10-12 games. With 22 teams in four divisions (2-6 teams and 2-7 teams) this season, Each team plays all the teams in their division (either 5 or 6) and all the teams in another division (either 6 or 7) for a total of 11 games, no bye-weeks.

The schedule isn't a big deal (unless we have an odd number of teams, that's a pain - but doable). I'm concerned about the dynamics of managing the league. The people, the logistics of getting games in, things I'm not thinking of.

BTW, our tie-breaker and scheduling matches rules are below:

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2.1 Team Points and Tie-breakers

Teams will be ranked for playoffs by points. Wins=3pts, ties=2pts, losses=1pt, forfeit=0pts.

2.1.1 Two-way ties in the division will be broken in order by: 1. Head-to-head play 2. Divisional record 3. Common opponents record 4. TD differential 5. Cas differential 6. Team ELO (on the OBBLM site) 7. Coin flip

2.1.2 Three-way ties (or more) in the division will be broken in order by: 1. Record against teams in the tie 2. Divisional record 3. Common opponents record 4. TD differential 5. Cas differential 6. Team ELO 7. Coin flip

2.1.3 Two-way ties for wild cards or playoff rank will be broken in order by: 1. Head-to-head play 2. Common opponents record 3. TD differential 4. Cas differential 5. Team ELO 6. Coin flip

2.1.4 Three-way ties (or more) for wild cards or playoff rank will be broken in order by: 1. Record against teams in the tie 2. Common opponents record 3. TD differential 4. Cas differential 5. Team ELO 6. Coin flip


2.2 Game Schedule

Each team will average approximately 2 matches per month. These matches are scheduled to be played on the monthly game day, however if a coach cannot make the game day, they can be made up at any time before the next game day.

2.2.1 Matches may be played out of order within a given month's schedule in order to facilitate scheduling conflicts.

2.2.2 Matches may be played before a game day as long as the previous month's matches are completed by both teams.
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[Fold]

Thanks guys, We've always been multiple divisions. I keep the seasons at 10-12 games. With 22 teams in four divisions (2-6 teams and 2-7 teams) this season, Each team plays all the teams in their division (either 5 or 6) and all the teams in another division (either 6 or 7) for a total of 11 games, no bye-weeks.

I think you are talking about groups, not divisions as gregory suggests. Divisions are completely separate leagues with the only interaction between them being at the end of the season where some amount of teams are promoted into the next highest league and some amount are demoted or relegated to the next lowest league.

I like this idea a lot for a large pool of players, it's great for allowing weaker teams/coaches to have something to strive for and a sense of achievement while the top teams/coaches vie for the top spot in the first division. The only question I'd have is on how to initially divide teams into divisions when you have no historical data to go by.

[mzukerman]

Thanks guys, We've always been multiple divisions. I keep the seasons at 10-12 games. With 22 teams in four divisions (2-6 teams and 2-7 teams) this season, Each team plays all the teams in their division (either 5 or 6) and all the teams in another division (either 6 or 7) for a total of 11 games, no bye-weeks.

I think you are talking about groups, not divisions as gregory suggests. Divisions are completely separate leagues with the only interaction between them being at the end of the season where some amount of teams are promoted into the next highest league and some amount are demoted or relegated to the next lowest league.

I like this idea a lot for a large pool of players, it's great for allowing weaker teams/coaches to have something to strive for and a sense of achievement while the top teams/coaches vie for the top spot in the first division. The only question I'd have is on how to initially divide teams into divisions when you have no historical data to go by.

Ahh... I see what you are talking about. We've actually used the tiered method in the past. We tanked it going into this season after using it two seasons due to a number of factors mostly surrounding coaches gaming the system.

Obviously everyone can't play everyone, it'd be too long a season. We've effectively got two divisions as you call them since only two groups are playing against each other.

[Vigfus]

We now have a 27 coach league.
We have chosen to divide it into three seperate divisions, the rookie, the experienced and the veteran division. Last place automatically demotes, first place automatically rises a division. Numbers 2 and 3 battle it out in barrage games versus the last and second last of the division above for a spot in that division next season.

Other than that we have found that even with the league divisions it is well worth giving the less experienced coaches a inducement bonus just for simply playing versus a coach classed higher. Per difference level (veteran - experienced - rookie) we award the less experienced coach a 50000 gp inducement bonus. Each season, at the beginning of the league coaches are classified per this system (dependent on their skill).
Up till now this has always been compliant with the divisions, but it is possible that we'll get changes in this as we proceed.

Other than that, we try to limit a regular league to 10 or 11 games.
Afterwards, the barrage games/playoffs make for a different atmosphere. Through the use of these, players don't tend to fall out at the end fo the season, as their team can still have a shot at the title.