Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF database

[dode74]

That "credible fantasy world" no longer exists in GW's mind. Slann, as originally created, don't exist. That's a retcon, but it's GW's retcon. There is a roster which exists and which works for which there is no race (whether we all remember frogs or not), so it's better from the game's perspective that it is used.

I think there's a middle ground between LoL and your perspective, HM. I also think Cyanide and GW are trying to find it. I know Cyanide worked hard to get the Slann roster in the game and now they've done so there are still some people not happy about it. I do wonder if they'd produced a different roster and not Slann whether you'd be castigating them for not using Slann... I guess it just proves that there are some people you just can't please.

Gaixo - I'd tend to agree about the AG4 humans, but apparently MA8 humans (as fast as a wardancer) are OK, and these guys are acrobats. So instead of 8237 (sprinters) we get 7247 (acrobats). Shoehorning? Sure. Explicable? Yeah, go on then

[Moraiwe]

I think Humans replacing Slann is not as crazy as the Bear replacing the Kroxigor. That's just loopy.

[Regash]

I think Humans replacing Slann is not as crazy as the Bear replacing the Kroxigor. That's just loopy.

Would a Kroxigor playing with a bunch of humans be better?
At least the bear fits the russian theme of the team.

And if you now think I thought it a good idea to replace Slann, you're wrong.

[Darkson]

Haven't people always blanched at AV4 humans?

I have, I don't mind AG4 so much though.

Do I think Kislev is a good fit? No.
Do I think a bad-fit Kislev is better than no roster at all? Yes.

[sann0638]

Don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but isn't the point that this allows people to play slann as it will be reasonably quick to reskin Kislev? I've never tried such things, but believe it's possible, no? <waits to be corrected>

[Darkson]

It was in BB1, I don't think they've made it easy to mod in BB2 (possibly at GWs request).

[Regash]

Also, reskining is one thing.
But to make humans look like giant frogs... Maybe a bit more work is needed.

[dode74]

It was in BB1, I don't think they've made it easy to mod in BB2 (possibly at GWs request).

It can be done. It's just the unpacking from and repacking in the middleware which takes specialisation.

[harvestmouse]

Don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but isn't the point that this allows people to play slann as it will be reasonably quick to reskin Kislev? I've never tried such things, but believe it's possible, no? <waits to be corrected>

Yeah, I did think this. And if they became the norm then that's quite clever. However if you aren't in the know, you're still getting a bespoke slann roster playing as humans.

It ain't right I tells yah. (you can see my fist shaking, right?)

[harvestmouse]

That "credible fantasy world" no longer exists in GW's mind. Slann, as originally created, don't exist.

Well the reason they don't exist anymore is because of this credible fantasy world. The 'lets turn animals into humanoid theme' became a thorn. Also it's difficult to explain Lizardmen and Slann co-existing. So it's a fluff reason why they don't want them. I wish they did.........but that's their reason.

There is a roster which exists and which works for which there is no race (whether we all remember frogs or not), so it's better from the game's perspective that it is used.

Coming up with rosters that work is hardly rocket science. I mean what were the chances that your Khorne list wouldn't work? Almost zero. Making a roster that isn't broken (and we're not talking about inexperienced ragers here) is fairly easy. Making it fit Galak's check sheet, the fluff, the other rosters and is interesting to play is the tough part.

I think there's a middle ground between LoL and your perspective, HM. I also think Cyanide and GW are trying to find it.

Well Riot can't. Everytime I load a game of LoL I get a pointless, bolted on fluff fact rammed down my throat that half the time I don't even bother reading. Cyanide also certainly don't know either. There problem is that the community has more BB knowledge than them.

GW are in a difficult position in that they're picking up a game the community has been developing for 20 so years. Is it their game anymore? A very difficult situation, but they must stick to their protocols. Credible fluff is essential. If we didn't have it originally, we wouldn't be here now.

I know Cyanide worked hard to get the Slann roster in the game and now they've done so there are still some people not happy about it. I do wonder if they'd produced a different roster and not Slann whether you'd be castigating them for not using Slann.

No certainly not. I have nothing personally against Cyanide. I want them to do a good job and succeed. Probably difficult to find now, but back in the day before they releases Khorne I was excited and wanted them to do it. I think a lot of my venom towards that roster was my disappointment in what it turned out to be. It showed on so many levels they just do not get it. The same with using Plasmoid's stuff; where it's not universally accepted to be a good thing. Lack of knowledge.

I also think GW and Cyanide have different objectives. For Cyanide it's a computer game, they update it like a computer game. For GW it's a world, it's important that world inspires imagination.

When you bought one of these GW games, you looked at the pictures, you read the fluff, you let your imagination flow. You were excited by the world before you even played a game. Computer games just don't go to that level of role playing. And GW are the best at it. Any competition in the past they've blown out the water due to their world being the most detailed.

Finding a middle ground between LoL and GWs perspective maybe possible. In fact aren't we there now? How many tournament or online gamers have no idea? Maybe we've already gone too far and are nearer to the LoL game. Certainly Cyanide aren't helping in maintain the fluff side of things. Yet, the way Riot are pushing the pointless bolted on fluff, they'd love to have a world like Warhammer with such detail and creativity. So....for me it's imperative we don't become another bolt on fluff game. It will break BB as it was intended.

[dode74]

Coming up with rosters that work isn't rocket science if you have experience making a roster, just like actual rocket science isn't difficult if you happen to have experience making rockets. Hence Galak's involvement in Khorne and limited chances of it not working. That's not true of other people, and the original Khorne which was proposed absolutely would not have worked. Furthermore, we had to fight fairly hard to get what we got rather than something which would have broken the game. Don't downplay the difficulty.

Riot are not Cyanide. Most of your argument seems to be against Riot, which is not what Cyanide are nor is it what they are doing. Similarly, Cyanide are not alone when it comes to updating the game: GW are still involved at a very deep level. The game is not created without the game world in mind: GW ensure the IP is protected. If you have an argument with what is being done then it is with GW and the way they are changing what you see as the world rather than with Cyanide.

[harvestmouse]

Don't get me wrong, some of what you guys did with Khorne was good. The frenzy theme I thought was brilliant. In fact I changed the Khorne roster I use, due to what you guys did. It really isn't too far away from being a list I'd be happy to use; same with Brets actually. However, there was a lot of 'Yeah, but you could explain that as.....' this is bolt on fluff. Bolt on fluff does not work.

The original idea for Cyanide's Khorne roster (which I have seen) is more a statement of Cyanide again having nfi. Actually in some ways it was more fitting of Khorne than the roster you finished up with; however yes....not something that could be added. That's not so much 'don't down play the difficulty' of making the roster and more 'don't downplay how letting Cyanide have full control is a bad idea'. Which going back around in this circle (of never being able to agree on matters like this) is why they should never have touched Khorne. It would actually be better now. What if Khorne were now given Pile On? That would be nifty.

I don't have anything personal against Cyanide. I think I was fairly supportive of you guys getting your say on FUMBBL back in the day and that you shouldn't excluded just because you guys didn't play there. Even loony Mike and his knack of rubbing the entire world the wrong way. I was disappointed that he was basically cast out there. However, we see time and time again they don't know what they are doing. They clearly do not, and have to rely on members of the community to bodge fix their mess.

I am trying to use Riot/LoL as an example. They have (what appears) made a mistake they cannot rectify; that being pointless fluff that is clearly bolted on. Or maybe they're happy like that. Whatever their game works. What I am seeing is a portion of the Blood Bowl world looking at following this business design. Doing so would remove a part of BB that LoL and the countless other clones could never have. A world that is more detailed than Lord of the Rings. A world that inspires people to play a game. A world that encourages creativity. Please do not destroy that.

So...........are you saying the Kislev Clown team using the exact stats of Slann is a GW idea, and that the roster they will release will actually be Slann stats?

[dode74]

Fluff is almost always bolt-on when you are trying to make it fit a game which is different to base. AV not being pure armour but an amalgamation of armour and toughness (WHFB stats) are an example.

Yes, Cyanide had (have?) no idea about how to design a roster. They got, as I am sure I told you, a full and frank debrief on that process from me and with a bit of luck if/when they come up with new teams they will give more control to the designers and include the community from the start. And of course Khorne was the wrong team to introduce, and we told them that. But that's when they thought they were capable of doing it all themselves. Brets was almost entirely from "the community" and works better fluff-wise because of that. Again, some people don't like the fluff and some people think the look and the fluff don't marry up (the armour and AV8 are a case in point) but you simply cannot please everyone.

I think you overstate what's happening in BB when you compare it with LoL. The world is still there and still rich and still being honoured.

are you saying the Kislev Clown team using the exact stats of Slann is a GW idea, and that the roster they will release will actually be Slann stats?

Kislev Circus. They are a reskinned replica of Slann entirely. While I don't know if it was GW's idea, they absolutely were in the decision-making process.

[harvestmouse]

Bolt on fluff for me is when you try to make a fluff reason for describing a player. The opposite of describing a player with fluff in mind. For you, it's a minor issue or a non-issue. For me it's massive.

Warhammer and BB are different games. Trying to exactly port a warhammer race over to BB isn't necessary. However, they should have the feel and play how you would expect them to play. There are a lot of cases where races/players are fairly different, but keep the characteristics of what they are. That's the important part. In a lot of cases special rules should be added. Look at a troll slayer or a vampire. Fairly different to warhammer, but play and feel like the creatures they are.

My point is this.....if you continue to add teams that do not describe the races they portray you are continually diluting how believable the fluff is. With all 3 of these Cyanide rosters they have done so; each for different reasons. LoL is my example of when the fluff is so bolted on, players no longer care. This in my mind is what will happen if Cyanide continue in the same vein. Once that believability is gone.....it's gone, you won't get it back.

Compare this to the 3 rosters added in lrb 5+ (slann, pact, and underworld) all of which had their own niche and fluff from old to back them up. All fantastic additions to the game.

[Darkson]

You keep slamming Cyanide for the Kislev roster, and seem to keep washing over the fact that it came from GW, and GW are (or at least, were) planning on releasing the same (or very similar) roster in a future DZ.