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 Post subject: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF database
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:31 am 
Kommissar Enthusiasmoff
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This is a copy of the post on the NAF forum:

The NAF minutes for May included a statement that the committee is planning a referendum on whether Khorne and Bretonnians should be added to the database: https://www.thenaf.net/2017/06/committe ... -may-2017/

This has been something that has been requested for a while, since Khorne were added to Cyanide's Blood Bowl 1. Bretonnians are in Blood Bowl 2.

Anecdotal evidence is that both teams are tier 2, depending on TV and ruleset. We will be looking at statistical evidence from Cyanide and from those NAF tournaments and tabletop leagues where they have been used.

In the meantime, thoughts welcome, on the NAF forum for preference please: https://member.thenaf.net/index.php?nam ... pic&t=7026

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Last edited by sann0638 on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:02 am 
Experienced
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The more the merrier!

Also bring in the new experimental teams from the GW app, or if some need balance, do that first.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:59 am 
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Or NAF could make Khorne and Bret rosters themselves, just as legitimate.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:19 am 
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Timing seems strange. GW have just returned to making Blood Bowl rules themselves, so why not wait and see what they come up with rather than try to legitimise some third party house rules?

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:26 am 
Legend
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BillyDee wrote:
Timing seems strange. GW have just returned to making Blood Bowl rules themselves, so why not wait and see what they come up with rather than try to legitimise some third party house rules?


This all day long.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:13 am 
Da Spammer
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BillyDee wrote:
Timing seems strange. GW have just returned to making Blood Bowl rules themselves, so why not wait and see what they come up with rather than try to legitimise some third party house rules?

+2, especially as Andy Hoare (I think, it was in the BBC facebook group) said they had no intention of bringing in Khorne or Bretonnian, though that might have changed obviously.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:05 am 
Veteran
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Rosters are established and non broken. I say: the more the merrier.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:42 pm 
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If you can have Slann, you can have Bretonnia.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:09 pm 
Legend
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Bakunin wrote:
If you can have Slann, you can have Bretonnia.


:o

So what about all the team rosters on FUMBBL, they have been play teasted to death, I'd love to play Squigs.
We can stsrt a new section on the NAF website, seen as there is going to be some work done anyway lets not waste the opportunity to get stuff done.

I'd like satistics for Casulties added.

Also an unnamed account to record unregistered coaches at sanctioned events

Also if there is new teams then can we add a future proof button to add more new teams as they are released

How about a separate league for non 24 tournements, like the INDY league.
TOs could add the name of roaster (fill in the blanks) at the tournement and this records games etc between registered coaches using fun teams like Squigs or Hobgoblins etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:50 pm 
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I've enjoyed Khorne in my cyanide league and would not at all mind seeing them at NAF tournaments. I have not played BB2 but we've just voted to allow Brettonians in our tabletop league. Looking forward to voting yes on both rosters during the referendum, on the grounds that they're at least as "official" as Pact, Underworld, & Slann, and that the rosters aren't going to ruin anyone's tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:03 pm 
Da Spammer
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rolo wrote:
on the grounds that they're at least as "official" as Pact, Underworld, & Slann, and that the rosters aren't going to ruin anyone's tournament.

How do you work that? GW have released a Pact and Underworld team, not a Bret or Khorne team.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
rolo wrote:
on the grounds that they're at least as "official" as Pact, Underworld, & Slann, and that the rosters aren't going to ruin anyone's tournament.

How do you work that? GW have released a Pact and Underworld team, not a Bret or Khorne team.


Khorne and Brettonians have at least a back alley stamp of approval (by being licenced for Blood Bowl: Chaos Edition, and Blood Bowl 2). As far as I know. the Pact, Underworld, and Slann rosters were created by the Rules Comittee - so semi-official but not on the same level of Officialness (officialdom?) as teams like Orcs and Humans which have had rosters included in every edition of every Blood Bowl box ever.

For me, that's a difference between a team like Khorne, and a team like Squigs - FumBBL has a lot of dedicated coaches but Squigs are by no stretch an "official" team. I probably wouldn't even mind seeing them at a tournament, but I'd be leery of seeing them tracked in NAF statistics, for example.

So for me, the threshold for a new roster becoming an NAF team is at least the ghost of official sanction, and not being play-tested enough that I'm confident they won't ruin the game. Other people will have other opinions, which is fine - that's the whole point of holding a referendum.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:36 pm 
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The problem is with whom has decided to add them. That being Cyanide, who appear to have a slender understanding of the community and the depth of the game.

Khorne was a really poor choice as an extra team. If you're going to do Khorne they should be ultra killy. The fact that the standard Chaos teams had a mixed reputation due to CPOMB should have been warning enough to anybody that knew, to stay away. And so a group were put together to make a Khorne roster with various stipulations that quite frankly made the project a farce. Add to this that the roster cried out for a new negtrait that wasn't possible due to the computer clients limitations means for me, it's a really poor choice for TT. Where you could do a much better rosters (but keep that core frenzy theme).

With Bretonnians it feels to me that they've tried to research about the community and found Plasmoid. Plasmoid really puts himself out there and his work is easy to find. Obviously Plasmoid is a hard worker, and does a lot for the community. However the quality of his work has a lot of doubters. Has a lot of well informed doubters. Again if Cyanide knew this (which clearly they didn't) they may have not used his work. The roster (especially the blitzers) have a lot of doubters, yet somehow with renaming Cyanide have actually made it worse.

On the other hand, the 3 'plus' rosters are based on official fluff/rosters in the past and are extremely good conversions to today's Blood Bowl. Put together by knowledgeable players who on the whole understand the community.

There's a big difference for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:40 pm 
Legend
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rolo wrote:
Darkson wrote:
rolo wrote:
on the grounds that they're at least as "official" as Pact, Underworld, & Slann, and that the rosters aren't going to ruin anyone's tournament.

How do you work that? GW have released a Pact and Underworld team, not a Bret or Khorne team.


Khorne and Brettonians have at least a back alley stamp of approval (by being licenced for Blood Bowl: Chaos Edition, and Blood Bowl 2). As far as I know. the Pact, Underworld, and Slann rosters were created by the Rules Comittee - so semi-official but not on the same level of Officialness (officialdom?) as teams like Orcs and Humans which have had rosters included in every edition of every Blood Bowl box ever.

For me, that's a difference between a team like Khorne, and a team like Squigs - FumBBL has a lot of dedicated coaches but Squigs are by no stretch an "official" team. I probably wouldn't even mind seeing them at a tournament, but I'd be leery of seeing them tracked in NAF statistics, for example.

So for me, the threshold for a new roster becoming an NAF team is at least the ghost of official sanction, and not being play-tested enough that I'm confident they won't ruin the game. Other people will have other opinions, which is fine - that's the whole point of holding a referendum.



Games workshop licence a lot of their products to third partys, there are a ton of computer games, it doesn't mean there any good. I mean Blood Bowl on the computer doesn't even work properly. The skills are not working right and have all the teams even been released and played against each other?

I'm not sure anyone can claim that as play tested.

In a broken format.

At least FUMBBL works, all the skills enducments stars etc are all there, its much more inline with table top.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of new races
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:05 pm 
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frogboy wrote:
Games workshop licence a lot of their products to third partys, there are a ton of computer games, it doesn't mean there any good. I mean Blood Bowl on the computer doesn't even work properly. The skills are not working right and have all the teams even been released and played against each other?


I play Blood Bowl: Legendary Edition, against Khorne teams from time to time (which is in Chaos Edition, people who bought that edition play in the same leagues but get extra teams).

I won't pretend that there are no bugs, but the game is "good enough" and it's definitely still Blood Bowl. There are some people who just hate Cyanide or even the idea that Blood Bowl exists as a computer game outside of tabletop. But when people say things like "skills don't work", they're talking about known (minor) issues like "Kick is always used, there's no choice". Usually the next complaint is "Not all Star Players are implemented!", which is irritating sometimes but at the end of the day, minor.

I've never held a gun to anyone's head and forced them to buy the PC game. But every season we find enough coaches to keep our small, private league going. If you don't like it, don't buy it! For me, it's a way to help me play more Blood Bowl and keep in touch with some friends from college, and not so terrible that I've quit.

Quote:
I'm not sure anyone can claim that as play tested.


I'm talking specifically about the Khorne roster here, there have been thousands of games played against "normal" Blood Bowl rosters. Whatever issues anyone has with Cyanide isn't enough to just totally discount that. In my (sure, subjective) opinion. My opinion will inform my vote in the referendum. As intended. Can't speak for Brettonians but I'm sure someone can.

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