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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:21 am 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

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I get that it's important to you, HM, but it is all about believability, and that's something which is solely in your head. If GW came up with a race, fully fledged, with fluff to fit but you didn't believe it then it wouldn't work for you regardless of whether they made fluff reasons for describing the player or they made the player with the fluff in mind. It's not about bolt-on, but about whether your worldview is upheld. GW (and Cyanide at GW's behest) have no interest in or regard for your worldview in particular and are creatively free to do whatever they like. GW proved willingness to refluff with AoS.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:38 am 
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Darkson wrote:
You keep slamming Cyanide for the Kislev roster, and seem to keep washing over the fact that it came from GW, and GW are (or at least, were) planning on releasing the same (or very similar) roster in a future DZ.


Is this true?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:45 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:23 am 
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harvestmouse wrote:
Bolt on fluff for me is when you try to make a fluff reason for describing a player. The opposite of describing a player with fluff in mind. For you, it's a minor issue or a non-issue. For me it's massive.


I get this. However; would you rather that BB2 would be without Slann? Or "Slann"? For these are really the only options for Cyanide:
1) Leave Slann out of it
2) Make a new team with the Slann roster (Kislev Circus or whatever...)
3) Create a whole new roster with plenty of leap and fitting fluff

For me option 2 is the one that makes the most sense. Option3 would most likely generate a giant shitstorm of disgruntled old men.

As for the original topic I would hope that Brets at least get serious consideration by NAF. Very soon BB2 (hopefully) will have NAF-sanctioned tournaments, and all the teams in the game. Plus the Brets.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:15 pm 
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straume wrote:
I get this. However; would you rather that BB2 would be without Slann? Or "Slann"? For these are really the only options for Cyanide:

No need to make him re-post his replies. ;)
Darkson wrote:
So you'd rather see no Leap/VLL roster in BB2, given that "yes, I want Slann" is not an answer that can happen?
And aren't GW supposedly doing a Kislev-circus team at some point?
harvestmouse wrote:
Would I rather have the slann roster rebadged or removed? Removed.

Does that mean we cannot have a leap /vll roster?

Not necessarily. Didn't 2nd ed greaser geargrinder come with vll and leap?

Lots of scope there. I am all for new rosters.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Hmm, fair enough. I missed that one.

I think making a brand new Slann-esque leap roster would generate a lot of flak. And thus would be a bad idea if you want to sell a product.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:42 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
I get that it's important to you, HM, but it is all about believability, and that's something which is solely in your head. If GW came up with a race, fully fledged, with fluff to fit but you didn't believe it then it wouldn't work for you regardless of whether they made fluff reasons for describing the player or they made the player with the fluff in mind. It's not about bolt-on, but about whether your worldview is upheld. GW (and Cyanide at GW's behest) have no interest in or regard for your worldview in particular and are creatively free to do whatever they like.


It's hard for me to say whether your right or wrong here. I think it's hard for you to be so categorical about it either. If I am making a roster then yes............I'm impossible. It's either my way or I start throwing toys. However of the rosters we have, there aren't many I unhappy with.

Zons and Norse were iffy with the cookie cutter design, but it makes sense in a way. I really dislike the Norse remake, it muddies the water a fair bit. I don't really like the renaming policy of lrb5, but meh I see the reasoning and can live with it.
Other than that I'm fine with all. I'm a HUGE fan of the 3 lrb5+ rosters......and I had nothing to do with them.

However the 3 rosters in question there are serious fluff and describing issues. That is my problem. All 3 are not what they could be. They could be better, which is a great shame for the game that we're getting imperfect releases force upon us.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:54 pm 
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straume wrote:
Hmm, fair enough. I missed that one.

I think making a brand new Slann-esque leap roster would generate a lot of flak. And thus would be a bad idea if you want to sell a product.


Well GWs main market are GWs players. What percentage of that market are Tourney or online players. The fact that NAF are extremely unlikely to drop the superb Slann roster, that takes out the Tourney market. Cyanide have a certain freedom of their own...........so what market is going to cause flak?

GWs other problem, and it's the problem they've faced since picking up BB again is the guys making the game have less experience and less capable players than thousands of us who've played thousands of games. That's very tricky for them. Yes, GW and Cyanide are both aware and are sourcing ideas from the community, but who should they go to? The most vocal? The most hardworking?

I think they are always going to get flak whatever they do. It's not the game of 25 years ago.

I am thinking that if you didn't play 2nd edition you're not really understanding my point of view........or fully understand the Slann of the late 80s. They are extremely bespoke, a one off race that is superior to humans. Galak (I presume Galak) took that late 80s list and converted it to modern day BB. It really shouldn't be used as another roster IMO.

Be inventive GW, if the community want a leap roster, then think of something if you are set on removing Slann (which is a bit anal). So I really hope this Kislev Clown roster isn't just the Slann roster using humans.

Anyway, you know my opinion and it's starting to get circular, which I despise. So I'll bow out. (And I did win btw, even if nobody agrees with me).


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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:03 pm 
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harvestmouse wrote:
I am thinking that if you didn't play 2nd edition you're not really understanding my point of view........or fully understand the Slann of the late 80s. They are extremely bespoke, a one off race that is superior to humans. Galak (I presume Galak) took that late 80s list and converted it to modern day BB. It really shouldn't be used as another roster IMO.


The interesting thing is that the whole leaping frogs thing was more of a Blood Bowl invention. I can see why GW wanted to change them if they were heading down a lazy anthropomorphic route as they already had that with skaven and beastmen.

The 3rd Edition WHFB books made no reference to them being particularly agile or good at jumping, though they were good in the water. Their stats were similar to humans but lost Ballistic Skill and gained toughness, leadership and 2 cool and willpower.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:47 am 
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The lack of ballistic skill was sort of replicated.....their hands were not suited for such things. This is why they cannot take throwers; ill suited hands for throwing.

The leaping/intercepting is a natural theme though.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:56 am 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

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harvestmouse wrote:
I am thinking that if you didn't play 2nd edition you're not really understanding my point of view........or fully understand the Slann of the late 80s. They are extremely bespoke, a one off race that is superior to humans. Galak (I presume Galak) took that late 80s list and converted it to modern day BB. It really shouldn't be used as another roster IMO.

I played 2nd Edn. I don't think that it follows that they shouldn't be used as another roster.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:18 am 
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dode74 wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
I am thinking that if you didn't play 2nd edition you're not really understanding my point of view........or fully understand the Slann of the late 80s. They are extremely bespoke, a one off race that is superior to humans. Galak (I presume Galak) took that late 80s list and converted it to modern day BB. It really shouldn't be used as another roster IMO.

I played 2nd Edn. I don't think that it follows that they shouldn't be used as another roster.


Well I said I was finished, but this actually is the crux of the matter and why we will never agree on issues like this. And my disappointment at your reasoning of the Khorne roster.

Fluff can be used to explain anything, right? So what are we going with here? Let's think of the reasoning now, to save Cyanide (or GW if it's the case) the 2 minute effort themselves.

Hmmm no throwers on Slann.....where as human teams do have throwers.......I know......the circus has pet monkeys that nibble away at the circus players fingers in the middle of the night, making them inept at throwing.

Leap.......hmmm that's a bit tougher, but walking through the baron snow wastes of Kislev builds up the bobbing up and down muscles in the lower legs, making Kislev's extremely adept at leaping.

The first AG4 human player. Errrrm let's see......each travelling village has a special second born each generation. They are marked with silver hair and to symbolize the importance of this, the baby is fed of a special formula called 'silver milk'. Silver milk is taken from the very best Yaks, infused with silver gromril and a special root from the bullshit plant.

Diving Catch. Food is quite sparse on the tundra and saving as much as possible is essential. One rare delicacy enjoyed by Kislev people is the fruit from the nubjubjibblegibblebabbledaddle fruit tree. However, it is only edible when it falls from the tree. Some Kislev Circus folk are extremely adept at saving the nubjubjibblegibblebabbledaddle fruit by diving to the ground and catching them before they land.

Diving Tackle. Putting up the circus tent in the high roaring winds of the tundra wastes can be extremely difficult and dangerous. Ropes pull loose and flap around causing damage and threaten to pull the tents away into the sky themselves. However some brave Kislev circus performers are extremely adept at diving and leaping and prancing around and catching these loose ropes.

Very Long Legs...........oh boy. There was a time that the Kislev circus people were embarrassed by their short stature. So it became custom to tie the legs of young boys to horses and stretch their legs so they became long. So successful is this process that no circus blood bowl performer can be any good without having his legs nearly torn off by wild steppe stallions. Furthermore the girls think they're really hot with ridiculously long legs too.

Kroxigors in Kislev. It was thought that these cold blooded animals could only survive in warm humid conditions due to being cold blooded animals. How wrong were we!!! In fact they just adore the snow. Where their brightly coloured scales blend in with the snowy tundra and makes them extremely adept hunters that love playing blood bowl in the snow. Further more their hard clawed feet don't slip around at all!!! In fact they're most suited to this most hostile environment....who'd have thunked it?

So yeah, you're right....I was wrong...bolting on fluff works just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:49 am 
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That's their reasoning, is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:48 pm 
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I do understand the Heart of Harvestmouse's objections.
As an actual example, when asked why Heralds on the Khorne roster didn't have regen (even though bloodletters/daemons do), either you or Galak replied that it could be argued that Heralds might be more willing to die for Khorne...
Hmm....

It is true that fluff and perception of fluff has a subjective element to it. Even so, I think most people will recognize good fluff vs bad fluff, at least in the sense that a majority will like it or that a majority won't.

That said, I do think that Harvestmouse knows that he is at the far end of the scale when it comes to the importance of fluff. I think the vast majority of players will prefer having a proxy slann team than having no slann team in BB2.

I haven't yet met anyone who thought that Kislev Circus was a good fit for Slann. Or that a Circus troupe BB team is a good fit for what a BB team is. And there are problematic Things with this proxy, such as AG4 humans and "proxy" skills on the roster. Even so, everyone I have talked to (which admittedly is a reasonably small Group of people) are happy to have slann in BB/BB2.

...and I don't think that "acrobatics" is an unconvincing way to explain leap, diving tackle and diving catch.

Perhaps now that no official player starts with Very Long Legs, GW could rename the skill to Strong Legs - just like Strong Arm or Sure Feet?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF datab
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:25 pm 
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plasmoid wrote:
Perhaps now that no official player starts with Very Long Legs...

Tell that to the goblin pogoer, or to Scrappa... or the new squighopper guy :wink:

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