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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:22 pm 
Legend
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I'm sure there are elections soon. An aggrieved person could stand for President and run on a platform of reform as suggested here in this thread. If there is truly a massive following they will win the election, become NAF Pres and can effect change. Democracy at work!

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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:23 pm 
Legend
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ugrosh wrote:

Still only the OP in the "signature" post.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:49 pm 
Rookie
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lunchmoney wrote:
ugrosh wrote:

Still only the OP in the "signature" post.

Happens that didnt updated the signature post, as Kafre said there's more, but a minority, the time tell if is so.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:34 pm 
Veteran
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lunchmoney wrote:
I'm sure there are elections soon. An aggrieved person could stand for President and run on a platform of reform as suggested here in this thread. If there is truly a massive following they will win the election, become NAF Pres and can effect change. Democracy at work!


Yes, let's completely ignore them unless they can win a presidential election and then force their changes through... I thought that the NAF was supposed to represent the player base? That should mean taking concerns that people have - even a small number of them - seriously and not dismissing their point of view.


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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Wulfyn wrote:
lunchmoney wrote:
I'm sure there are elections soon. An aggrieved person could stand for President and run on a platform of reform as suggested here in this thread. If there is truly a massive following they will win the election, become NAF Pres and can effect change. Democracy at work!


Yes, let's completely ignore them unless they can win a presidential election and then force their changes through... I thought that the NAF was supposed to represent the player base? That should mean taking concerns that people have - even a small number of them - seriously and not dismissing their point of view.


Im not dismissing their point of view, but they are few, although spain has the third player base. That community is built on hate. At my age hate of anything is not my choice, i can like or dislike something, but hate is out of my view. At my point of view are a few vocals haters. 4 pages and none adhesion, even from the most stale people. it should say something.

The 4 pages are about how poorly this proposal is build. Its my opinion that is only a rant, and if you know spanish, you would realise that very quickly. Its a rant because hasnt any argumentation than i want this or that. If it was better argumented perhaps i could agree or disagree, but as is, i can't do neither.

AS i see NAF isa world-wide organization, and as such, cannot bent on one country, much less if the community represents a low percentage of their own player base. You can say that 60-70 aren't a negligible number, and i agree, but can't argue neither that is representative. its a gray state.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:19 am 
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I agree that it is a rant, and I expect that is why nobody else here has signed the petition. And I also think that the specifics of what they have requested are not the best way to go about things. But is the sentiment of their request really that unreasonable? They want more transparency. They want clearer communication. In short they want to understand and engage with the NAF better so that they can be a part of it in a comfortable way. That's not a position of hate. "NAF must change" is a cry for help (Digger's "NAF are w@nkers" is a position of hate :wink:).


I don't agree with the way that they have approached this. But I do know that when people feel the need for these public outcries it is often because they feel frustrated. I am sure that behind the scenes the NAF committee are looking as to why it came to them feeling the need to do it in this way. But I also don't think that we should just ignore the sentiment simply because it was not expressed in an eloquent way, or through preferred channels. I expect that there are a lot of people that, whilst disagreeing with the method (and with the specifics), are still sympathetic to the sentiment. I know I am.


Better to have this out in the open where it can be dealt with. Even if the answer is no, you can at least engage with them to explain why and let them have a fair chance at influencing the decision. Just feeling like you have been heard goes a long way towards calming frustrations. I think that is a much stronger and more inclusive result than replying in this forum saying that because it is only a handful of people from one country then it doesn't matter. To me it does.


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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:36 am 
Experienced
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Can someone explain the topic for someone who have no idea? Imagine you explain to a 5 year old.


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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:45 pm 
Rookie
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Baxx wrote:
Can someone explain the topic for someone who have no idea? Imagine you explain to a 5 year old.


Lets see:

- Some TO and players from the Spanish BB community feel that the GW changes to the rules, as Star Players, rosters and new staff are not well tested. Note please, that many tournaments in Spain use the Incentives as they are.

- Until now NAF has sanctioned tournaments with CRP rule base + amendments.

- From August and on the NAF tournaments have to comply to BB2016 rules + DZ1 + DZ2 + Teams of Legend + Slann + Sanctioned Star Players (optional)

- This raises some questions as:
Will every roster published by GW endorsed by the NAF?
Will the NAF approve rules that have been barely* tested?
Will the NAF approve rules for their use that are not translated, and because of this are unreachable to some of their member base?
Is there any reason behind theses changes that NAF members are unaware off?
Is every tournament capable of changing their bases with 3 month advise?

*This "barely" is subject of discussion, but the "I like it / I don't" seems to be -with all respect to the testers - a poor testing approach.

- GW is a company that sells miniatures. Is known what happened to 40k and there is reasonable to have fear of what they may do. This translates in resilience specially in tournaments and the present request.

- Many don't think the new rules are bad or not funny, but because they feel unbalanced and untested and the NAF has sanctioned them, and doesn't allow them to keep using the CRP as stable and tested manual.


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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:09 pm 
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ugrosh wrote:
Im not dismissing their point of view, but they are few, although spain has the third player base. That community is built on hate. At my age hate of anything is not my choice, i can like or dislike something, but hate is out of my view. At my point of view are a few vocals haters. 4 pages and none adhesion, even from the most stale people. it should say something.


Yeah, you got stuck in a nasty topic. The BB players who were there have been playing and organizing tournaments from a long time, and they still have a grudge against GW for pursuing and then forgetting. I cannot blame them indeed.

BTW I think I'm going to change my signature to "Born on hate, built on hate, flooded with hate, come to Blood Bowl foro, place of hate and Blood Bowl" or maybe something sorter "Come to Blood Bowl foro. All the hate you can manage and Blood Bowl!"

ugrosh wrote:
The 4 pages are about how poorly this proposal is build. Its my opinion that is only a rant, and if you know spanish, you would realise that very quickly. Its a rant because hasnt any argumentation than i want this or that. If it was better argumented perhaps i could agree or disagree, but as is, i can't do neither.

AS i see NAF isa world-wide organization, and as such, cannot bent on one country, much less if the community represents a low percentage of their own player base. You can say that 60-70 aren't a negligible number, and i agree, but can't argue neither that is representative. its a gray state.


The proposal is open and short on purpose. There are many people with many different opinions so it was reduced to the least common denominator to see how many people agreed. People keeps joining and at least there are 25 tournamets organizers. I don't really know if that is much either. But again, even if in a low percentage they should be listened.


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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:12 pm 
Super Star
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Kafre es Ispurio wrote:
Baxx wrote:
Can someone explain the topic for someone who have no idea? Imagine you explain to a 5 year old.


Lets see:

- Some TO and players from the Spanish BB community feel that the GW changes to the rules, as Star Players, rosters and new staff are not well tested. Note please, that many tournaments in Spain use the Incentives as they are.

- Until now NAF has sanctioned tournaments with CRP rule base + amendments.

- From August and on the NAF tournaments have to comply to BB2016 rules + DZ1 + DZ2 + Teams of Legend + Slann + Sanctioned Star Players (optional)
Just as a factual note, the previous BB2016 stuff has been mandatory since 1 February. It's quite possible that some organizers ignored that or failed to be notified, but we did our best to get the word out.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:21 pm 
Experienced
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Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 11:47 pm
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Why must things be mandatory?

It's a game, people play the way they want to...


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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:42 pm 
Experienced
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 11:17 am
Posts: 101
I think there are 71 player adhesions so far, with almost no publicity out of bloodbowlforo. See the last elections in the NAF. That number alone would have been statistically quite relevant.

People are lazy in the internet. And Spaniards are among the laziest. Try to rise a poll on a forum about a minority hobby, and let's see how many participants you get.

And well, 26 tournaments so far are a good number, and geographically very concentrated. I keep hearing comments from TO who question what offers the NAF to them. I keep telling them the NAF is not an evil company with a hidden agenda. THEY are also the NAF, and can expect their opinions to be taken into account.

And well Ugrosh... Your manners in bloodbowlforo were quite ill mannered. You went around telling very experienced people they were wrong, calling them haters and now you dismiss an initiative from the third biggest nation... Second only to UK (home of GW), and USA (which more than a country is a whole continent). You can go back whenever you wish, no one banned you. Just think about the tone of your messages.


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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:41 pm 
Rookie
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Kafre good response to me, well done. Nothing to replied to you.

Manuel now disagreement Is Ill-manners, if by good tone you understand that i should agree with anything , well then i don't lift the self impose ban, of course you can dislike as you wish how i express my disagreement. were the users experienced players or not, that in a discussion or a good discussion is irrelevant. less if such experienced players recognize didn't read most of the current ruleset. and i have experience as well, ten years, could be less than most, but is experience playing the game nonetheless. and if you think that i'm dismissing the initiative, ive gave my reasons that by no means are absolutely and not misleading, because i'm letting the people argument with experience or lack of . Last response to you from me, next time that response to me with no argument, next step that i put you on ignore list, that this forum allows. And that i've said to anyone what to do or think is mere bullshit.

The experience isnt an argument by itself.

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Last edited by ugrosh on Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:53 pm 
Super Star
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Baxx wrote:
Why must things be mandatory?

It's a game, people play the way they want to...
Indeed. And one of those ways is: outside of NAF-sanctioned tournaments. The main point of sanctioning is to provide some degree of standardization.

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 Post subject: Re: NAF must change
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:55 pm 
Kommissar Enthusiasmoff
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Which currently looks like CRP, plus about 6 new rules :)

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