Register    Login    Forum    FAQ

Board index » Community Discussion » The NAF




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 156 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:21 am 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:03 am
Posts: 434
Joemanji wrote:
This thread proves yet again why Darkson is not only unsuitable to de facto head moderator here, but possibly one of the most poisonous characters in our community.

It's always fun to lead with an ad hominem, though I feel (and this is just personal opinion) that there should be something more to your argument too. Insults can add flavour, but they don't have much nutritional value.

Joemanji wrote:
This was not the correct way to go about this.

The correct way to go about things is the way that gets shit done. The more ingrained a system is, the less likely systemic problems are to be solved through what conservatives consider "proper channels". The reason conservatives ardently promote "proper channels" is those are the channels they have gotten good at using to block change they don't like.

Joemanji wrote:
But this is just another example of you lacking even basic social skills. Grow up.

Weren't you NAF's tournament coordinator or some such? I hope this isn't how you approached that role.

hutchinsfairy wrote:
There was a vote and the consensus was that Brets and Khorne should be included. What Darkson is doing looks suspiciously like someone litigating because consensus and public discussion did not deliver the verdict they wanted. Hardly an expression of democratic ideals.

Darkson is not applying any formalized force against anyone here, so lets not pretend this is an attack on democracy. If you truly believe that, on a given issue, the consensus is that what he opposes should be done, then public discussion shouldn't be an issue - it should result in an expression of that consensus. Issues do not end when the NAF decides they do, they end when everyone who cares about those issues decides they don't care enough to talk about them.

Besides, the actual decision being questioned here is the NAF's decision to record people's games whether they want them recorded or not, whether the person is a NAF member or not. That was not put to a general vote, it was a committee decision.

sann0638 wrote:
You'll notice that the minutes were published showing this decision in November. People chose not to read them, sadly.

Yeah, I think the Vogons said something like that, didn't they? I hope there's no follow-up poetry...

sann0638 wrote:
I think you are anonymous, is that right? So difficult to know if you have seen any of the benefits from the work of myself and other committee members over the last couple of years. I would say some of these hold, but no doubt you will disagree: http://www.thenaf.net/2015/12/why-join-the-naf/

I don't disagree that there are reasons to take part in the NAF, I'm saying that it has never been the focus of the NAF to foster an environment in which newcomers easily see those benefits before being hit with "you have to join the NAF or you can't..." which makes it feel more like press-ganging. Now, admittedly, this is anecdotal... I'm speaking from my own experience, and the experience of the people I play BB with, but I can't imagine we're the only ones facing that experience (but who knows?).

_________________
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:09 pm 
Super Star
Super Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:53 pm
Posts: 1166
Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
sann0638 wrote:
rakkzul wrote:
JT-Y wrote:
Just allow individual users to set their profiles to 'private' or 'hidden' or whatever. Their opponents will still get the points for rankings, but the individuals details and match records can be hidden if they so wish.


Can't this be done? I don't know how the database was built, but if it's possible could be a solution


JTY requested it in a personal message to me, and we allocated NAF funds to develop it so that the TO record and winners could be hidden. To hide more than that would be overkill in my opinion.


What I asked in private was why the NAF had decided to make public information which I had not given it permission to share, that it had not asked for permission to share, and which was in no way connected to or relevant to the rankings. Making that change to allow members to hide that info was wise, but it does not go quite far enough in allowing members to hide other details should they wish, including details of rankings and events attended, which is what's being discussed here.

I've been part of a great many rankings systems down the years*. The NAF stands out in two regards: It is the only one I have ever paid to be a member of and that has in turn enforced that membership is required if I wish to attend many events, and it is the only one that doesn't offer me the option to hide my details and rankings info. Offering users the option to hide their details and therefore opt out of the public rankings would harm nothing and be appreciated by many.

Note that I'm happy to be a member of the NAF, but not due to rankings. I honestly believe that rankings is the least of the things the NAF is capable of providing to members, and I think the NAF should direct some energy elsewhere at some point.

Always remember that it's better to accommodate players than to for them to comply.

_________________

"It´s better to enlarge the game than to restrict the players." -- Erick Wujcik


Last edited by JT-Y on Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:23 pm 
Kommissar Enthusiasmoff
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:24 am
Posts: 5702
Location: Swindon, England
One useful thing that could come out of this is a formal "can NAF committee please consider X" form or something similar. It could be part of NAF minutes that "the following proposals have been received". I have had numerous such requests over the last few years, and it might make things more transparent, rather than people privately messaging committee members they happen to know.

_________________
NAF President Emeritus
Founder of SAWBBL, Swindon and Wiltshire's BB League @ sawbbl.uk
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:07 pm 
Star Player
Star Player
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:12 pm
Posts: 675
Location: Oxford, UK
Broadly agree with J-TY here. I think the NAF should consider at commitee what data is public, and what data can be selectively hidden. I'm sure there is at least one person who doesn't want their real name prominent on the NAF website for example. May be wrong, but I don't think there is a way to opt out of this currently?

Also, if J-TY contacted someone using a private channel, I think that should have stayed private.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:34 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 5176
Location: Copenhagen
I think perhaps the NAF committee would be wise to reconsider their decision.
The GPDR is one thing. But even without it, careful handling of private information is always a good thing.

However, what I really wanted to say was that the ruling back on page 1, seems to be about coaches potentially "abusing" the system by playing unranked games (for practice?).
Is this an actual issue?
It sounds like a non existing one, or perhaps one so minute that the "abuse" is tolerable.

Cheers
Martin

_________________
Narrow Tier BB? http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm
Or just visit http://www.plasmoids.dk instead


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:35 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:59 pm
Posts: 6190
Location: The Fast Lane
mubo wrote:
I'm sure there is at least one person who doesn't want their real name prominent on the NAF website for example.

Yes, me.

mubo wrote:
May be wrong, but I don't think there is a way to opt out of this currently?

You shouldn't be able find my real name anywhere on the NAF site; even in my "personal details" the name entered is not my real name.

If anyone does find my real name on the NAF (or anywhere on the internet, actually) please let me know so I can arrange to get it changed ;)

_________________
Image

The Exiles Tournaments use the Icepelt rulebook, for complete BB rules and fluff. Download here.
Hired Goon for the NAF (RTO for South West England and Wales) lunchmoney@thenaf.net
@Lunchmoney_Al for me @ExilesBBLeague for #TeamExiles news


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:48 pm 
Kommissar Enthusiasmoff
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:24 am
Posts: 5702
Location: Swindon, England
You can hide your real name, yes. Again, this is something that was added recently, and in fact the only reason for having your name on there at all is so that you can be sent stuff.

My only reason for saying that JTY contacted me was to say that we are taking issues like this seriously. I could see why someone wouldn't want their list of tournaments and awards public so took action.

The NAF is responsive to stuff like this, in short.

As an aside, it's somewhat frustrating that there has been a lot more written in the last week or so with people being cross than there has been about the good stuff that has happened. But that's life.

_________________
NAF President Emeritus
Founder of SAWBBL, Swindon and Wiltshire's BB League @ sawbbl.uk
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:07 pm 
Star Player
Star Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:56 pm
Posts: 639
Location: Lindau
mubo wrote:
I'm sure there is at least one person who doesn't want their real name prominent on the NAF website for example.


There is more than one. The committee was approached with that by one person and we have acted immediately, I think within one week since it took some days to implement in the code/settings.

plasmoid wrote:
I think perhaps the NAF committee would be wise to reconsider their decision.
However, what I really wanted to say was that the ruling back on page 1, seems to be about coaches potentially "abusing" the system by playing unranked games (for practice?).
Is this an actual issue?
It sounds like a non existing one, or perhaps one so minute that the "abuse" is tolerable.

Also, here, abuse was indicated to the committee and therefore we had a discussion about it and came up with that ruling.



There's one thing which really bugs me in this discussion here. It was mentioned several times that the NAF is intransparent. What exactly is meant by that and how would these people want to change that? Do you want the NAF committee to have public hearings where all of the membership has the ability to interact during the meetings? Or do you want an annual membership assembly where the membership can question the committee members and submit proposals? It's not like that the NAF committee comes together to find ways on how to come up with unpopular stuff to annoy the whole membership. Ever I was allowed to be VP, I can't remember a single meeting where we did not discuss every topic, which was brought to us from the members in depth and we had to make a decision, which we believed in was it was the best for the majority of the membership. Of course, having 3000+ active members it is impossible to please everybody. There will be always people, who disagree, for whatever reason. That is democracy. The committee was not sure about the Brets/Khorne issue, that's why we held that advisory vote. With almost 70% of all voters being in favour there was no way the committee could not bring Brets/Khorne in. Again, that is democracy. If you don't like the way things work, get involved, put your hat into the ring for being on the committee by standing for an election. If you get the majority behind you, you can change it back if you want. Smart or not smart, that's for the future to tell.

_________________
Nuffle Sucks! Heretic, NBA
www.biboba.de


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:58 pm 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 4863
Location: Bloodbowl Heaven
All this about Khorne and Brets? Where was the outrage against Slann? Those aren't official either last time I checked..... :roll:

_________________
NFL: Praise NUFFLE!!!

Ronin Nuffle Lover.....Want a piece of me?

Werewolf Gambler

Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:41 pm 
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:26 pm
Posts: 268
Location: Costa del Swindon
Tojurub wrote:
If you don't like the way things work, get involved, put your hat into the ring for being on the committee by standing for an election. If you get the majority behind you, you can change it back if you want. Smart or not smart, that's for the future to tell.


Completely agree that, if something bothers people so much, they should be proactive rather than reactive.

I was expecting a lot more candidates for the President gig because there was so much aggro aimed at the NAF in the run up to the election; thought at least one of the various snipers would fancy the chance to do things 'right'.

It's sad to see more noise about the NAF than from the NAF. Maybe more of a social media presence from the president and committee members might limit that, but I guess that would leave you open to personal attacks and pestering, too.

With regards to transparency, maybe a bit more detail in the minutes? I'll confess that I've never actually read them very religiously but, if I was someone who was really keen to know the inner workings of the committee, maybe a bit more meat on the bones might silence some critics.

Still, I bet the salary and benefits package is worth all this noise though, right? Right?! :wink:

_________________
It's just toy soldiers... :roll:

Aspiring to improve on mid-table mediocrity, over in the SAWBBL.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:38 pm 
Power Gamer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 4:08 pm
Posts: 9287
Location: ECBBL, London, England
Jip wrote:
... I was expecting a lot more candidates for the President gig because there was so much aggro aimed at the NAF in the run up to the election; thought at least one of the various snipers would fancy the chance to do things 'right'.
That is just classic nerd isn't it though? They have days of spare time to tell you how many great ideas they have or just complain, and not even one minute to actually do the elbow work to put them into practice. :wink:

Jip wrote:
It's sad to see more noise about the NAF than from the NAF. Maybe more of a social media presence from the president and committee members might limit that, but I guess that would leave you open to personal attacks and pestering, too.
There are things that one might reasonably criticise Sann for if one were so inclined. Not having a large enough presence on social media is the opposite of one of those things. Certain people on the committee may even be guilty of having bought said positions via social media over other - some people might say - more qualified candidates. :wink:

_________________
*This post may have been made without the use of a hat.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:04 am 
Legend
Legend
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 5176
Location: Copenhagen
Hi Tojurub,
since you asked this while/responding to me:
Quote:
There's one thing which really bugs me in this discussion here. It was mentioned several times that the NAF is intransparent. What exactly is meant by that and how would these people want to change that?

Just to make it absoluetly clear: I'm generally very happy with the NAF. I vote, I read the minutes and I pay may membership when I go to tournaments. I think the price of membership is minute, and I think the gift (for me), the trophies (for tournaments) and the help given (for newbies, mostly) are all good.

Quote:
Also, here, abuse was indicated to the committee and therefore we had a discussion about it and came up with that ruling.

My personal opinion is that in this case the ruling was the wrong one.
I think the both the scale and the consequence of abuse is not worth the hassle, since it seems to run counter to the privacy issues that need to be dealt with due to GDPR.
What I mean is: People will need the option to anonymous. So they might as well be able to, and then sod the potential "abuse".

Cheers
Martin

_________________
Narrow Tier BB? http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm
Or just visit http://www.plasmoids.dk instead


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:36 am 
Star Player
Star Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:56 pm
Posts: 639
Location: Lindau
I was hoping that the huge gap in between my comment to your post and my general rambling was big enough. Sorry if that wasn't clear. There was only one sentence meant to be as a response to your quote.

The GDPR issus is one we take serious, but the one thing about avoiding abuse on rankings, which let to the ruling, and the privacy stuff are indeed completely two different topics, but got somehow intertwined in this thread, which is unfortunate.

_________________
Nuffle Sucks! Heretic, NBA
www.biboba.de


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:28 pm 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:24 pm
Posts: 427
Joemanji wrote:
Jip wrote:
... I was expecting a lot more candidates for the President gig because there was so much aggro aimed at the NAF in the run up to the election; thought at least one of the various snipers would fancy the chance to do things 'right'.
That is just classic nerd isn't it though? They have days of spare time to tell you how many great ideas they have or just complain, and not even one minute to actually do the elbow work to put them into practice. :wink:


Also, for what I have seen up to now, being a member of the Naf means doing a lot of work in your free time for no money.
Complaining is fun... everything should have a go. doing stuff is hard.

Joemanji wrote:
Jip wrote:
It's sad to see more noise about the NAF than from the NAF. Maybe more of a social media presence from the president and committee members might limit that, but I guess that would leave you open to personal attacks and pestering, too.
There are things that one might reasonably criticise Sann for if one were so inclined. Not having a large enough presence on social media is the opposite of one of those things. Certain people on the committee may even be guilty of having bought said positions via social media over other - some people might say - more qualified candidates. :wink:


It is all a work of the Naffia.... shhhh! :wink:


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:33 pm 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:24 pm
Posts: 427
Tojurub wrote:
If you don't like the way things work, get involved, put your hat into the ring for being on the committee by standing for an election. If you get the majority behind you, you can change it back if you want. Smart or not smart, that's for the future to tell.


And if the majority is not for change it is right that things don't change.
It's an association.... the majority of the members choose what they want.


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 156 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

Board index » Community Discussion » The NAF


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: