Register    Login    Forum    FAQ

Board index » Community Discussion » The NAF




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 156 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:39 pm 
Star Player
Star Player
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:12 pm
Posts: 675
Location: Oxford, UK
Tojurub wrote:
mubo wrote:
I'm sure there is at least one person who doesn't want their real name prominent on the NAF website for example.


There is more than one. The committee was approached with that by one person and we have acted immediately, I think within one week since it took some days to implement in the code/settings.


Great - glad to hear!

Minor point, does one have to be a paying member in good standing to make this change? Because I think if not then it invalidates initial premise of this thread.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:58 pm 
Kommissar Enthusiasmoff
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:24 am
Posts: 5699
Location: Swindon, England
Admins can tweak it for people.

_________________
NAF President Emeritus
Founder of SAWBBL, Swindon and Wiltshire's BB League @ sawbbl.uk
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:48 pm 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 1:52 am
Posts: 225
I've read all the changes of bickering, I'll respond to that at the end. First I wanted to address the OP subject. I find the reasoning to be untenable. What is practicing with a team to protect a high rating? I practice in league all the time while protecting my NAF rating. I don't have any concept of what the perceived threat is here. A coach is already free to play halflings only at tournaments that are more friendly to them. Why does forcing someone to play ranked games make NAF better? If you truly believe forcing people to play ranked games makes NAF better, why stop at this niche case? I actually highly value the system of NAF ratings. Why is this ok, but not saying that all NAF sanctioned games are recorded is also ok? Why make a rule with obvious loopholes, when you can close the loopholes?

To the main discussion: membership is not binary. Non-member, active member, and inactive member. No longer paying dues makes someone an inactive member, not a non-member. In Darkson's request to move from (eventual) inactive member to non-member. This is a special case and his personal form of protest. I may think it is pointless (and I may think he is a jerk), but I respect his right to protest and make the request. I don't actually think NAF is obligated to reclassify him, but I think they should. (Following privacy laws as applicable.) I believe NAF owns the historical game records, but I don't think Darkson was actually asking those to be removed.

Unless the NAF or tournament specifically require it, I think anyone should be able to request prior to the tournament that their games not be recorded for NAF. I would prefer that NAF require a NAF id to play at a NAF sanctioned event, but until then I think it is pointless to require all games that don't include a non-member to be recorded. I don't think the arguments presented by the OP present sufficient reason to make such niche restrictions that have such obvious loopholes.

_________________
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:36 am 
Experienced
Experienced
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:42 pm
Posts: 115
CyberedElf wrote:
I think anyone should be able to request prior to the tournament that their games not be recorded for NAF.


All other considerations aside, this would make the data less meaningful. As soon as you allow users to veto potentially unfavourable results you significantly diminish the value of the dataset. Allowing coaches to easily game the system is probably bad.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:52 am 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:24 pm
Posts: 427
hutchinsfairy wrote:
CyberedElf wrote:
I think anyone should be able to request prior to the tournament that their games not be recorded for NAF.


All other considerations aside, this would make the data less meaningful. As soon as you allow users to veto potentially unfavourable results you significantly diminish the value of the dataset. Allowing coaches to easily game the system is probably bad.


This also can cause a extremely complicated problem... what if someone asks to abstain and the tournament organizer enters the data nonetheless?
BOOM! Diplomatic crisis.

Better just stop abstaining altogether.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 am 
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:39 pm
Posts: 16
hutchinsfairy wrote:
CyberedElf wrote:
I think anyone should be able to request prior to the tournament that their games not be recorded for NAF.


All other considerations aside, this would make the data less meaningful. As soon as you allow users to veto potentially unfavourable results you significantly diminish the value of the dataset. Allowing coaches to easily game the system is probably bad.


Are you reading the whole thread?
Nobody is asking to remove potentially bad result from rankings, justo to stop recording ALL the results from someone that don't want his results in the ranking. ALL the results. From now on. And that persons is not even an active NAF member, but if a NAF member want's to do the same he should be allowed to do it.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:07 pm 
Experienced
Experienced
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:42 pm
Posts: 115
viyullas wrote:
Are you reading the whole thread?

Yes, in fact I'd recommend it. The OP is about not allowing coaches to select which NAF sanctioned tournaments are going to affect their rankings and which will not, potentially allowing them to manipulate their standings.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 pm 
Super Star
Super Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:53 pm
Posts: 1166
Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
Honestly, I think it's a simple matter of allowing individuals to set their profile to hidden (though I don't know how much work that would take within the database). Results should still be recorded but you won't be able to go and find an individual, see their rankings, or see what tournaments they've attended whilst a profile is hidden, but should they change it it should all be there to be made visible. Their opponents will still have a result against 'hidden' opponent using whatever team, and results should still count.
But opting out should be an all or nothing thing, you are either hidden for everything, or for nothing.
That's what other rankings system in the past and today have done. It should allow those individuals who object to rankings for whatever reason to abstain, and it should allow those who care to join in whilst losing nothing. This is very reminiscent of conversations had in the past about RHQ and the like a very long time ago now, when the internet was still dial-up for most people.

The problem is when stuff like this gets over thought, particularly when you over think the reasons why people shouldn't have the freedom to opt out in some form. It's vital to recognise that others just won't feel the same way about such peripheral issues that surround the hobby in general. It's always possible to cater for everyone, and very well if so desired.
Given the choice I'd set my profile to 'hidden', I'm not a member of the NAF for the rankings, I genuinely think it has much more to offer and that's why I remain a member and keen to work with the committee for the good of the community/our customers.

_________________

"It´s better to enlarge the game than to restrict the players." -- Erick Wujcik


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:32 pm 
Kommissar Enthusiasmoff
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:24 am
Posts: 5699
Location: Swindon, England
Thanks JTY, I think you may actually have the solution to some of the problems - perhaps we should have explored this more a couple of months back. This would not be trivial however, and the NAF would have to pay for the development.

What this would need is:
- a blank in the opponent field in any match report
- blanked out tables on the coach page

And conceivably:
- a blank in the list of attendees for a particular tournament.

It would be a policy and technical change, however, obviously, so wouldn't happen overnight. There are various other issues that this does not cover, though.

_________________
NAF President Emeritus
Founder of SAWBBL, Swindon and Wiltshire's BB League @ sawbbl.uk
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:07 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:44 am
Posts: 73
-- Removed stupid post --


Last edited by kyrre on Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:13 pm 
Experienced
Experienced
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:42 pm
Posts: 115
sann0638 wrote:
Thanks JTY, I think you may actually have the solution - perhaps we should have explored this more a couple of months back. This would not be trivial however, and the NAF would have to pay for the development.

What this would need is:
- a blank in the opponent field in any match report
- blanked out tables on the coach page

And conceivably:
- a blank in the list of attendees for a particular tournament.

It would be a policy and technical change, however, obviously, so wouldn't happen overnight.


And if the issue raised in this thread was genuinely on its own merit and isn't just being deployed as a retaliatory strike then that might be the end of it.

It sounds like some members might use it (e.g. JT-Y) but there should probably be some mindfulness of cost vs usefulness.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:23 pm 
Experienced
Experienced
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:42 pm
Posts: 115
kyrre wrote:
Obviously, you would have to decide before you enter the tournament.


Yes, CyberedElf's point was quite clear on that so I didn't reiterate in my response. I was really just echoing the OP in stating that allowing coaches to choose which tournaments count (even before knowing the results) is to give them a way to manipulate their standings.

hutchinsfairy wrote:
CyberedElf wrote:
I think anyone should be able to request prior to the tournament that their games not be recorded for NAF.


All other considerations aside, this would make the data less meaningful. As soon as you allow users to veto potentially unfavourable results you significantly diminish the value of the dataset. Allowing coaches to easily game the system is probably bad.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:31 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:44 am
Posts: 73
hutchinsfairy wrote:
kyrre wrote:
Obviously, you would have to decide before you enter the tournament.


Yes, CyberedElf's point was quite clear on that so I didn't reiterate in my response. I was really just echoing the OP in stating that allowing coaches to choose which tournaments count (even before knowing the results) is to give them a way to manipulate their standings.


It should have been. My mistake.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:33 pm 
Experienced
Experienced

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:44 am
Posts: 73
sann0638 wrote:
Thanks JTY, I think you may actually have the solution to some of the problems - perhaps we should have explored this more a couple of months back. This would not be trivial however, and the NAF would have to pay for the development.

What this would need is:
- a blank in the opponent field in any match report
- blanked out tables on the coach page



Actual Elo-rating, while hidden, still have to be tracked to figure out everyone else's Elo rating. Outside of the actual checkbox in the user's account, I think this is can be solved by replacing a coach's nick with a common nick for any abstainers, like "Anonymous coach", in all queries that result in a public report. A blank opponent field will probably not cut it as it already carries a meaning in the dataset (no coach). There are quite a few blank coaches in there already.

I think there are maybe 4 reports affected currently? Simple tournament results, advanced results, ranking and coach info. Not an insurmountable development challenge if prioritized.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Abstaining from ranking
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:16 pm 
Super Star
Super Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:53 pm
Posts: 1166
Location: Chorley, where the police tazer blind people rather than look for the actual sword wielding lunatic
That's exactly what I was talking about. An option that allows users to set their profile to appear as hidden or anonymous on queries. Keep recording everything as normal but let the individual choose quite simply if that is shown or not.
I don't see any reason why in others match records "anonymous coach" shouldn't have the team they used visible, but clicking for more info takes you to a "sorry that profile is hidden" page rather than their coach page with all their stats and history.

It shouldn't contain anything that makes more work when uploading results or running data at a tournament.

_________________

"It´s better to enlarge the game than to restrict the players." -- Erick Wujcik


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 156 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

Board index » Community Discussion » The NAF


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: