Calling ALL English coaches.... (yes, that includes YOU!)

[TheDoc]

I also feel that there should be a place for the NAF champion (if English), previously Sizzler and Stan have won this tournament but have not been on the Eurobowl team, which I find a little strange, but again there maybe a reason for this, that I am not privy to.

The current NAF Champion will not be at the EuroBowl wearing his countries colours. I agree with Gorgoroth may be selection should be postponed until after NAFC and the highest ranked English player gets a place? Normally we have at least one place in the top 5.

[stanrichardson]

I also feel that there should be a place for the NAF champion (if English), previously Sizzler and Stan have won this tournament but have not been on the Eurobowl team, which I find a little strange, but again there maybe a reason for this, that I am not privy to.

The current NAF Champion will not be at the EuroBowl wearing his countries colours. I agree with Gorgoroth may be selection should be postponed until after NAFC and the highest ranked English player gets a place? Normally we have at least one place in the top 5.

I have been caped Actually before winning the NAFC.

[deeferdan]

Hi all,

interesting thread and I agree with much that s being said about clarity in selection etc.

I'd also like to take this a little left field and consider what else team England could/should be doing within the BB community. I for one am particularly keen on improving, and I consider team England a bit of a resource on this front. One of the things I am most jealous of when I see the set up (apart form the higher than average dice obviously ) is the opportunity you guys have to get together to share thoughts, learn and improve.

Now obviously I understand that there should be no obligation on team England members to share some of their knowledge, but I for one would be really interested in the opportunity to have an informal games with like minded players who are looking to improve, ably supported by the team England set up. This could take the form of a day or weekend and include various elements including the resolution of particular scenarios, OTTDs, playing as pairs, alternate turns etc and could be followed by a social and even a second day with a 1 day tournament.

Like I say, I completely understand that I could be in a massive minority in being interested in this sort of thing, and I wouldnt expect all the Team England guys to be willing to spare their time if they thought such an event arduous, but I would consider it a really interesting and inclusive way of allowing people to express their interest in potential future involvement in team England, and demonstrate their commitment to improve. Nobody (English) wants to see the standard of Team England slip and I for one would only want to be involved on merit (which is why I have never expressed an interest to be involved previously as I know I am not able enough), but I think this sort of thing, even if only once a year would be a really positive step to developing players and improving inclusivity.

[Pipey]

We have the Scottish Championship (results posted on TFF) and the top 3 are automatically in the team. The Captain is elected by a vote of ALL Scots attending / at the previous Eurobowl and he chooses the rest of the team.

Further to Garrick explaining how the Scottish community picks its team, it might be useful to look at how other communities across Europe do it.

In the last few days I contacted some captains and team members from various European countries to ask what their systems are. Results below.

I think it's really interesting in general, but might also inform this discussion. Anything we can learn? Steal? Rehash?


Belgium
-Captain does not have any specific selection responsibilities
-Team of 6 qualify based on objective scoring system (results in Belgian tournaments); that group of six agree the other two players by consensus

Denmark
-Captain must have previously played EB, discussions currently underway to consider eligibility of EO players too
-Coach rating (single NAF ranking with all races) used to pick 7 places objectively; 8th spot is voted for by the other team members from a group of three nominated by the captain

France
-Any French player who has played at least one tournament may stand for captaincy vote; same conditions to vote in these elections
-Captains state their choice of 8 players before the election
-French NTCs (x4 North South East West) lead and administrate this process
-Previously (2014) half the team was voted for by the whole community and the other half picked subjectively by the elected captain; discussions underway to potentially return to this system for 2020

Germany
-Captaincy candidates must have previously attended Eurobowl (discussions regarding inclusion of EO); voted for by German community
-Selection is captain's subjective choice

Italy
-Captaincy candidates musty have previously played Eurobowl; voted for by Italian community
-Selection is captain's subjective choice

Netherlands
-Systems are informal and primarily the guys are happy to find a team of 8 who will travel

Norway
-Captain is Team Norway founder, position discussed within community and consensus for him to continue
-Captain is sole subjective selector

Scotland
(As already described...)
-Anyone attending the previous Eurobowl or EurOpen may stand for captaincy, a vote is held in person at the previous EB event; all EO and EB attendees may vote
-Captain plus three best players from Scottish Championship are picked; final four are picked subjectively by the captain

Spain
-Anyone can stand as captain who plays Spanish tournaments, preferably speaks English; community votes for captain
-Team picked subjectively by captain
-Recently Spanish have decided to elect a single captain for a three year term, three Eurobowls from 2020-2022

Sweden
-Any Swedish player may stand as captain
-Captain uses statistical qualification systems (NAF Elo, with win %) with some subjective judgment to select team

Switzerland
-Captain may be any Swiss player, however a group of two or three regulars traditionally have taken this role informally
-Team Switzerland generally happy to get eight willing travelling players

[Garrick]

@Pipey, very informative and useful!

The other point I was making was the inclusive nature of the Scottish approach where every coach in the Scottish Eurobowl Team and every coach in Scottish EurOpen Teams are treated as the Scottish Squad, wear the same team shirts etc. Some of the other nations do something similar.

Are there too many English Coaches at the Euros to consider this? If I am interfering just tell me to butt out

[Wulfyn]

Some additional information for discussion:

Regarding inclusivity every English coach that has played a tournament in the last year is eligible to vote for the captaincy. So everyone gets a say in who the captain is.

Typically these votes have gained only about 40 people placing a vote. There's definitely the potential for a lot more people to vote, and maybe having it hidden away on Geoff's forum exacerbated this, but they are generally well advertised. There was a move to reddit (one ofthe world's largest websites) but this seems to have not gained much traction either. There is also a facebook page but that also is quiet.

Two years ago for Sweden Joemanji and Don Vito put themselves forward as Captain. Don Vito won, but was unable to attend so Lycos picked up the captaincy. Last year in Portugal Lycos and Pipey put themselves forward. Pipey won but was unabale to contend so Joemanji picked it up. This year nobody put themselves forward as captain until the last day when Lycos did and won unopposed. Why are more people not putting themselves forward?

Although it is not a requirement Team England captains tell me that they are proud to continue a tradition of appointing a new cap every year. For Sweden that was mubo, Wilfrezi, and myself (I was a late call up as Podfrey had to drop out). Last year it was nippylongskar. This year it is PeteW. So excluding myself thoae are some strong coaches being brought in.

A lot of the better English coaches do a large proportion of the tournaments outside the UK, so bear that in mind when thinking of something like the Golden Gauntlet. Using myself as an example I have/am due to play UKTC, Waterbowl, NAFC, Cakebowl, and Stabb in the UK this year (I also missed Boudica). Overseas it is Dungeonbowl, Budapest this weekend which i have missed due to work, Tilean Team Cup, Lutece, Bilbao Cup, Brassmans, and possibly the German Team Cup. I don't think it is inclusive to punish people for doing overseas tournaments just as it would be bad to punish those that do not.

For Portugal it was the intention of Pipey and the Joemanji to have a combined EB and England EO teams. It didn't go ahead due to lack of interest. Historically England have not sent many teams to EO. Maybe there is a lot of interest now? Maybe just because it is Wales so easy to get to? How many people woud be interesed in an England EO team or two?

[deeferdan]

I would definitely be interested in England EO teams, would be a good way of playing alongside new folk and feeling part of the England team.

I've have already penciled Poland in for this sort of thing.

Dan, I think you are correct in stating that the increased interest is due to the locality of the tournament. Hopefully the experience will push more coaches to play abroad more regularly.

[TheDoc]

I for one am particularly keen on improving, and I consider team England a bit of a resource on this front. One of the things I am most jealous of when I see the set up (apart form the higher than average dice obviously ) is the opportunity you guys have to get together to share thoughts, learn and improve.

Like I say, I completely understand that I could be in a massive minority in being interested in this sort of thing, and I wouldnt expect all the Team England guys to be willing to spare their time if they thought such an event arduous, but I would consider it a really interesting and inclusive way of allowing people to express their interest in potential future involvement in team England, and demonstrate their commitment to improve.

I'd be up for this. Cracking idea!

As for EO team. I can't go this year due to baby arrival... "bloody unrealistic" the wife says... what does she know But I am pencilled in for World Cup. I'd be happy to get more practice and coaching on skills etc.

[Pipey]

Why are more people not putting themselves forward? [for captaincy]

One obvious answer here is that only a dozen or so people were realistically eligible to stand i.e. currently active and previously capped. Compare with the French system (anyone may stand, see above) where there were five candidates and 200+ votes last time.

Agree with Sandwich and Wulfyn's caveats re using Golden Gauntlet for selection. Though also agree with a few posters that some in-built objectivity in selection might be an improvement. In this era of Glicko and Elo maybe a calculation can be derived which tells us who are the most consistent winners? Other countries (Sweden, Denmark) are doing something like this with Coach Rating, win% etc.

The single EO+EB Team England squad concept sounds absolutely brilliant! When I was briefly skipper last year before having to withdraw (family wedding) I did intend to have an official England EO team of three. It was a suggestion by someone in the Q&A, I think Mubo. Unfortunately I didn't get the chance to develop it but believe it would've worked well. The whole squad idea would be stepping it up to the next level. Love it!

I'm also in favour of practice days or wider Team England get togethers. Started some chat along these lines on TE forum and Reddit last year.

Location of debate, planning, tactical chat? Is TFF the answer? Certainly seem to be getting more traction here than I can remember.

[Garrick]

The single EO+EB Team England squad concept sounds absolutely brilliant! When I was briefly skipper last year before having to withdraw (family wedding) I did intend to have an official England EO team of three. It was a suggestion by someone in the Q&A, I think Mubo. Unfortunately I didn't get the chance to develop it but believe it would've worked well. The whole squad idea would be stepping it up to the next level. Love it!

The Team Squad concept has worked very well for Scotland in a variety of ways including:

1. Inclusivity as we share travel, accommodation, team shirt etc. information with the entire Squad. In Cardiff most of the Squad are in the same hotel and with the spare rooms we had booked we were able to offer the brand new Celtic team, Ireland accommodation as well.
2. Exposure to the Eurobowl environment for coaches who might make the national team in future years.We have noticed that coaches brand new to the environment perform less well than they are capable of.
3. Ready pool of reserves. Last year due to the demise of Monarch Airlines we needed a last minute replacement and were able to substitute in a Team Scotland Squad EurOpen coach who already had his travel, accommodation, team shirt, team dice, Converted Head Coach figure etc. all sorted and was well known by the rest of the national team. (We were a little disappointed that the organisers originally insisted we take a Freebooter rather than chose a replacement for our own national team but luckily sanity prevailed).
4. Everybody wears a Squad mandated kilt which being instantly recognisably also goes down well abroad. How about Union Jack Shorts or Straw Boaters for the English Squad?

Location of debate, planning, tactical chat? Is TFF the answer? Certainly seem to be getting more traction here than I can remember.

Surely it would be simple enough to get an English Coach page on TFF?

[Loki]

How about Union Jack Shorts or Straw Boaters for the English Squad?

?

Straw Boater.PNG

[Joemanji]

Hello all,

Great to see some interest in Team England here, I'm passionate about the team and love it when people show even a passing curiosity. Unfortunately it would be remiss of me to ignore the elephant in the room. Geoff (Podfrey) has started this discussion mainly it seems because he is sore about not being picked for Team England in Wales. I have sympathy with him and anyone else who missed out on the team. But no one coach is bigger than the team, and some recent behaviour from Geoff just isn't cricket. Unilaterally closing the Team England forums should not be any one person's decision to make, and pointedly refusing to shake Lycos's hand after winning the NAFC last week was an embarrassment.

That said, the communication this year was a bit lacking as a number of people have mentioned, and it is a shame if people felt they missed out. Lycos has never been one for constant online promotion, preferring to talk to people individually. Although it must be said that there were 22 coaches who put their name forward for selection this year, which is double what we had last time. Clearly Lycos's methods weren't a total failure.

As a framing comment I would repeat something said here already: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Team England have just won a ludicrous fourth Eurobowl in a row, whilst still including at least one new cap every single year. English coaches are travelling to foreign tournaments in greater numbers than they ever have, and people seem genuinely delighted that they are making the effort. In just a couple of weeks there will be 15 English coaches at the Lutece tournament in France, only two of whom have played for TE. Most of them will be there because of word of mouth from the TE regulars who blazed a trail and went there first, many after reading Purplegoo's fantastic blog.

What more do we want?

On to more specific responses, the first thing I would say is that just because somebody hasn't been picked for England doesn't automatically mean there is some grand conspiracy. Some of the names the more casual observer might expect to have been involved have been absent of their own choice. To give one example - regular tournament winner Besters has been asked if he wanted to put his name forward for TE several times, but declined because of the travel involved. There are many other coaches who have been encouraged to put their hat in the ring again and again, but have declined for one reason or another.

With regards to multiple communications channels, unfortunately that is a fact of modern life IMO if we want to reach as many people as possible. As with so many things with this topic, we are damned if we do and damned it we don't. Try to reach as many people as possible and there are too many channels. But if one person misses a post then we aren't making enough effort to communicate.

Is selection representative? Of course that is subjective, but 'representative' of what? Are people more representative of the English community if they play ten small tournaments within 50 miles of their house, or five big tournaments around Europe? Is running the NAFC worth more or less than turning up to a one-dayer in your home town? Do the thousands of hours of my spare time I have spent doing work for this community no longer count because I only play ten tournaments a year rather than twenty? I think this is why having one captain is a good system, they can make these decisions to their own standards.

On the matter of qualification: be careful what you wish for! Not only is this a terrible method for determining the 'best' coach in general, more importantly it would create a new hyper-competitive environment in the English scene. All the TE hopefuls would be forced to take their Tier 0 teams to lots more tournaments, to 'power game' more often, to generally be more ruthless. Is that what we want? Awarding a spot to the NAFC winner is an even worse idea. Blood Bowl is a highly volatile game and winning any one given tournament is almost a lottery.

I was captain last year for Porto, and was keen to have a EurOpen team be part of the official Team England squad, having seen it work so well for the French. I approached numerous likely candidates over the months before selection and was rebuffed time and again. It turned out that if people were to play in the EurOpen they much preferred to have the freedom to create their own allegiances and make their own plans.

1) How well do you have to play and for how long in order to challenge for a place?
2) Are tournament wins or placings taken into consideration?
3) Is NAF ranking taken into consideration ie if you are top English coach with a particular race for instance?
4) Any other factors, or am i barking up the wrong tree?

Hi Owen, I'll answer this one directly as it cuts right to the heart of the matter IMO. As with everything in a system with one captain having sole power, much of it is subjective. But at least for me:

1) I guess you have to play clearly better than the 8th best coach on the team for long enough for it to be noticed. If people think you are equally good as the worst coach on the team they may plump for the known option.
2) I would say one tournament win is meaningless as it could be fluke, but two in a year probably makes people at least notice your name. Obviously the tournament standard is a factor. In theory Eurobowl quality coaching would make finishing 4th at ten tournaments in a row a seriously noteworthy record, but in reality that less likely to be noticed. But generally tournament results are the advertising not the product. Playing well is more important.
3) I would say not at all, except that it is hard to have a good record without also having a high NAF ranking. It is pretty easy to game the system by only playing at weak events and hiding your ranking. Whereas conversely if you constantly attend tough events and put your ranking on the line it is much harder to maintain a very high number over a long period of time.
4) The most important thing is making your interest clear. Once the people in and around the team know you are keen they will pay more attention to your performances. There are a lot of tournaments and a lot of of coaches around, so putting your hand in the air is very important.

[Pipey]

I saw only 7 people put their name forward for the team, not 22.

But then I agree it's clear communication was lacking. Fair to say that's a theme.

The Eurobowl Charter (Eurobowl.eu) in fact demands that:

Captains must share information and gather opinions about EB from within their community.

So how do we ensure a captain does what's required?

We need more people involved in debate, to ensure he presents and delivers on a clear manifesto.

Currently we hope that the candidate who emerges from the group of former capped players will fulfil his responsibilities but it's no more than exactly that, hope. If we had a wider choice of possible candidates then we could choose one who gave the best case. Their elevation to the role of captain would be more meaningful, more representative of the English community.

We also need to ensure the way captains pick teams is agreed by the community. That's why I welcome the current debate. This is a requirement of NAF policy:

Tournaments in which teams are selected to represent nations are eligible for approval. This is only if... the national selection procedure is discussed and a broad consensus reached amongst the community within each nation

[Pipey]

I'm also in favour of practice days or wider Team England get-togethers. Started some chat along these lines on TE forum and Reddit last year.

In response to a query this is what I had in mind for a pre-Eurobowl practice day (from Team England Forum / Reddit). It could be something to run this summer ahead of Cardiff, and may be of interest to those wanted to talk about practice events.

-"English Euro Cup" working title
-14-16 players with registered EO and EB players for Cardiff having first refusal, though any interested parties welcome to join
-fairly central venue, I suggested hiring some tables at Warhammer World
-competitive but constructive vibe, opportunity to try out some rosters for Cardiff in a relaxed environment
-three games on one Saturday in summer (maybe August), Cardiff rules
-would get some prizes with a nominal entry fee, fiver maybe less

 Might be something to discuss more here or in another thread in this section. Certainly appeals to me as a chance to dust the cobwebs off my lizards for Cardiff.

[besters]

This is a complicated topic and difficult to formulate, never mind express, my views. I wish my reasons for not putting myself forward more were as simple as Joe stated. Certainly travel, more particularly the extra time for european events played a part, my estimate of my game level another, whilst my belief that european experience is required was a further element. There are probably several more!

I might be in a minority, but historically, I don't think a lot has been wrong, the England team has good results and a variety of coaches around a solid core. I have been aware of the requirements and had discussons about selection policy on a general and personal basis. It's unfortunate that there seems to be a repeated issue around how the process works.

Moving on I would agree that the idea of including europen teams in wider team england seems to be a good one, both with a specific team and making available team shirts, if wanted. I would also suggest embedding conversation in this forum and other widely used media rather than a separate website is the way to go, although not sure how multiple locations can be co-ordinated.

The bloodbowl world is changing, new players arriving, we need to be as inclusive as possible. Perception is important.