TE EurOpen Team - Open for Nomination

[speedingbullet]

I've opened this thread so we can discuss a way forward for selection of a Team England EurOpen team.

There are lots of options including:

1.Teams of English coaches put themselves forward for TE EO selection by vote (as for Cardiff)
2.Teams of English coaches put themselves forward for TE EO selection by the TE Captain
3.Teams of English coaches put themselves forward for TE EO selection by the TE Committee
4.The TE Captain selects (from those putting themselves forward for TE) the coaches to play TE EO
5.The TE Committee selects (from those putting themselves forward for TE) the coaches to play TE EO
6. A TE EO Captain is elected (or selected) and the TE EO Captain picks the TE EO team (from those putting themselves forward for TE)
7. Objective selection (lots of sub options here)

There are related issues to think about too such as the timing of EO selection relative to EB selection.

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Team England EurOpen Nominees
JBone
SpeedingBullet
TheRake
that_there_phil
douglowe
gritter

[Darkson]

Surely the first part of the discussion is what the TE EO team is meant to be? Is it just an extension of the main EB team (#9-#11), is a 'less serious, more fun' team that would maybe appeal more to players that, for whatever reason, don't think they'd ever get a shot at the EB team but would still like some way to represent TE, some sort of middle ground between the two, or something else?

For example, if it's #9-#11 then (imo) the EB captain should pick it in the same way, or as part of, the TE picks.
If it's a more fun and 'inclusive*' option then maybe the captain, or a committee could pick, but it has the rule that anyone that has played for TE EB can't play in the EO team. Or maybe the captain doesn't want to pick.
Or many other options.

Basics first.



* I'm not saying TE isn't inclusive now, but I know many players, like myself (when I played) knew we had zero chance of being picked for TE.

[Wobert]

I agree with Darkson, it's the point made in the last thread. Surely the answer to the question is that it's an extension of TE because otherwise what's the point? If it's a popularity contest then it has no value and need not be discussed.

In terms of the how it's chosen, can I throw in something that may not go down well and contradicts what I just said?

People weren't happy with Doc B and it got voted down, fair enough. However, we could do something like on space on TE Open team is for the highest placed English coach not already in TE from the Golden Gauntlet. The Gauntlet acknowledges coaches who have been to lots of events (thus supporting the community) and done well. To me that feels like they have earned a shirt if they want it. It will also engage more coaches potentially because it gives them a very real way of achieving it via a mechanism that already exists. That should keep it simple (ish).

[speedingbullet]

Surely the first part of the discussion is what the TE EO team is meant to be? Is it just an extension of the main EB team (#9-#11), is a 'less serious, more fun' team that would maybe appeal more to players that, for whatever reason, don't think they'd ever get a shot at the EB team but would still like some way to represent TE, some sort of middle ground between the two, or something else?

Agree that the purpose is an excellent way to start the discussion.

In my opinion (and to clarify this is just my personal opinion, not an official Committee view) the EO team should be an integral part of the TE setup. There are lost of things that we could seek to accomplish with TE EO such as: winning the EO; introducing more players to the TE setup; widening the group of players who feel they have a realistic chance of representing TE; improving community engagement with TE.

Again, this is only my personal opinion but EB is the top level competition, EO is an accompanying tournament but lots of the top players are going to be in the EB. So whilst we want the top 8 players in the EB team, we may not always want players 9, 10 and 11 in the EO team? I suggest we want a strong EO team if it is to represent England. However, one of the criticisms of the TE setup is that it tends to be (largely) the same core of people every time. I think it would be a mistake to end up with a system that sees the same 11 people selected every time. We could use the EO to mix things up more than we'd want to do with EB, to widen the pool of players and with it, hopefully, the appeal and the community feel.

@Wobert, I'll add objective selection to the list of possible methods in the top post.

[deeferdan]

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In my opinion (and to clarify this is just my personal opinion, not an official Committee view) the EO team should be an integral part of the TE setup. There are lost of things that we could seek to accomplish with TE EO such as: winning the EO; introducing more players to the TE setup; widening the group of players who feel they have a realistic chance of representing TE; improving community engagement with TE.

I'd agree with this...

To me it seems a simple and unobtrusive (to the current TE set up) way of developing TE, creating a pathway into the team and demonstrating to the wider community that TE is absolutely NOT a closed shop. This is why i was so disappointed with the EO proposal in the document that was voted down this week, it seemed like EO was not being given the opportunity it deserves to play a really straight forward role in developing the TE set up.

It's important too that there is no stigma attached, obviously it is not the heights of TE representation, but it is still an achievement to be selected, not (what felt like) a rather arbitrary popular vote which served its purpose at Cardiff, but should now be moved away from.

[Pipey]

To play devil’s advocate… I guess we should first be asking the question “do we want an official EO TE team?”. Certainly there were discussions in the committee when it was suggested we should not. I have also seen comments that EO is a different thing with a different spirit, that it should not involve selection and the added competitiveness that EB has. Adding to that I’ve heard it said that there is a risk of looking like a token gesture, a phony version of the real thing.

Anyone feel TE EO is not a good thing? Please shout up!!

All that said, I do personally very much support the idea Assuming we have consensus that we want an EO TE, I feel we should be guided by those who are passionate about it happening. I guess Deeferdan, Wobert, Nippy, Wulfyn and others.

Look forward to hearing lots of ideas. In particular I'd quite like to see concrete proposals about how this would work e.g. the interaction with EB selection, how it syncs with registration dates which seem to be getting earlier each year (currently I understand EB registration for Poland is required by Feb, and EO by April).

[deeferdan]

I think you're right Bren, timing is a key issue - hence why the most logical thing to do would be have the captain and/or committee produce the list for both teams at the same time (January for the sake of argument) thus giving everyone plenty of time to make their own EO plans id they aren't involved.

Re process - i think I've said this before but will repeat for the sake of getting things in one place - I'd like to see those people putting themselves forward for TE involvement to specify that they'd also be interested in being in the EO team (although hopefully that would be implicit) - from this larger pool the captain then draws up his team followed by a (yet to be decided process) to put together the EO team from those who just missed out.
Completely accept that my naivety of the process may be over simplifying things, but to me this aim seems pretty achievable.

Re rationale - i'd be pretty surprised if anyone wanted TE EO to play a purely "ceremonial" role - because, frankly, what purpose would that serve? Not a rhetorical question, i'm just struggling to think of any reasons for it to run in this form.

[stick_with_poo_on_the_end]

Personally , I would prefer to play the EO representing my league / club . Leaving the main EB to represent the countries . Just my feelings tho

[PeteW]

I like the idea of an official TE-EO team, with tshirts, and going to dinner with TE and being involved in discussing strategy etc. It's a nice bonus idea, and having a competitive EO team is super.

The question is raised whether it would be truly competitive. I suspect many people wouldn't want to be on the official EO team, and if not selected would rather travel and play with their mates, who may or may not be the 'optimal' team.

I think it is probably worth a go for next year to see if it works.

I would suggest that the captain is chosen first, and this should be able to be done before Christmas. I would have thought that we could ask TE hopefuls to put their names forward at the same time. Give the captain a month to sort their team out and get it nailed down by the end of Jan. Then people have a week to put themselves forward for official EO team, and the captain can build a team by the end of Feb.

I guess timings of that could slip a little, but it should be easily do-able. We need to give people enough time to book time off work, flights, accommodation, negotiate with family etc etc.

[speedingbullet]

In Committee discussions prior to the recent vote strong feelings were expressed about the TE Captain having enough to do without also being responsible for an EO team. My suggestion would be something along the following lines:

1.Coaches put themselves forward for either or both of EB and EO selection at the same time.
2.The TE Captain chooses the EB team
3.Shortly after (say within 2 weeks, ideally quicker) the TE Committee chooses an EO Captain
4.The EO Captain chooses the other members of the EO team (say within two weeks)

I’d like to see people come in and out of the EO team to give a broader group of people the taste for national competition and the opportunity to mix with the EB team. To encourage a rotation of TE EO coaches we could have a constraint on who can be selected. I’m not sure how but perhaps something like “A coach shall not be selected to represent TE in the EO team in consecutive EOs”.

[Joemanji]

In Committee discussions prior to the recent vote strong feelings were expressed about the TE Captain having enough to do without also being responsible for an EO team.

As someone who has been captain, I don't think that is a serious concern. Picking an additional three names and ordering an extra three shirts (often delegated) is not much of a burden.

[deeferdan]

I’d kind of thought this, but didn’t want to say it as I’ve no actual experience - presumably you’d have a group of around 11 anyway so the EO slots could make the first stage of shortlisting slightly easier.

I like Jim’s point about mixing up the representation within EO too... no allowing more an individual to be on the EO team in consecutive years seems fair and reasonable.

[Purplegoo]

Perhaps leave it up to the captain to decide how to pick the EO team and make it something we can ask him about at election time?

I don't agree with Joe, I found selection to be a nightmare and lost sleep over it (I'm not saying this is a negative thing; I thought it was important and it's alright to be a bit stressed over important things you want to get right), so I would have absolutely loved to have farmed out the additional selection of a EO team to someone I decided would be well suited to picking it. Maybe a committee, maybe a sub-captain who I knew I wanted on that team, whatever, just not me.

Joe would have been happy to choose, I would have delegated... I don't see a reason why we'd make it one size fits all. We're perhaps in danger of over-thinking this.

[deeferdan]

Joe would have been happy to choose, I would have delegated... I don't see a reason why we'd make it one size fits all. We're perhaps in danger of over-thinking this.

Very good point - a one size fits all approach would likely take us down a similar route to that just experienced.

I’ll shut up now

[mawph]

Personally , I would prefer to play the EO representing my league / club . Leaving the main EB to represent the countries . Just my feelings tho

To stick my oar in, this rather sounds pretty similar to Team England opt in, or out. You're probably asking people whether they want to opt into Eurobowl and/or Europen TE teams, where at the moment it's all rather Eurobowl related.

I like the idea of insisting that when prospective captains stand, they need to state their views on:

1. Picking Eurobowl squad
2. Whether there will be a "Performance Based" Europen squad (alternatives being "Popularity" and "No Europen Squad")
3. How a "Performance Based" Europen squad would be selected, if they are Captain