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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:27 am 
Star Player
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Perhaps Princelings should get leader instead of pro.
That way, it would at least make sense to get one

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:00 am 
Emerging Star
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There is no "must take" player in the entire game.
Maybe they would fit in another game, but overhauling the structure and characteristic of BB to fit in princelings is simply an abomination.

Leader would make everyone take 1, but no one take 2.... still a mess.
Some things are so broken there is no point in trying to fix them.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:12 am 
Legend
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Rolex wrote:
There is no "must take" player in the entire game...

:cough: Wardancers :cough:

;)

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:19 am 
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lunchmoney wrote:
Rolex wrote:
There is no "must take" player in the entire game...

:cough: Wardancers :cough:

;)


I was answering to DaImp.

"Must take" means a player that you are forced to take. (listed as 2 or 1-2 instead of 0-2)
Not a player no sane coach would not take.

Wardancer are still optional in the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:31 am 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

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I think it's fixable with a fairly major overhaul while retaining the base theme:
Remove A from the Retainers and make them 60k
Remove Guard from the Bodyguards and make them 70k
Make Throwers 0-2 and add Sure Hands
Remove Pro from Princeling and make them GAS 100k
Make Ogres 0-1.

This leaves you with:
0-1 Ogres (as standard) 140k
0-2 Princeling 7337 Catch Dodge GAS 100k
0-2 Thrower 6338 Pass Sure Hands GP 70k
0-4 Bodyguard 6338 Block GS 70k
0-16 Retainer 6338 Fend G 60k
Rerolls 60k

Team now has good starting options (e.g. 2 Princelings, 4 Bodyguards, 1 Thrower, 4 retainer, 3RR = 970k), isn't OP out of the box, has decent development options on the positionals and the Princelings are now viable and probably desirable for both their speed and their S access.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:45 am 
Legend
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Rolex wrote:
"Must take" means a player that you are forced to take. (listed as 2 or 1-2 instead of 0-2)
Not a player no sane coach would not take.

Wardancer are still optional in the rules.

Ah, ok then ;)

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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:52 am 
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dode74 wrote:
This leaves you with:
0-1 Ogres (as standard) 140k Ok
0-2 Princeling 7337 Catch Dodge GAS 100k That makes them MORE overpriced then before. They are ghouls that pay 30k for catch!
0-2 Thrower 6338 Pass Sure Hands GP 70k Discounted by 10k, like the human thrower... ok
0-4 Bodyguard 6338 Block GS 70k Ok
0-16 Retainer 6338 Fend G 60k A 10k discount.... on a 0-16 choice? Really?!? Fend is not Frenzy, it has no drawback.
Rerolls 60k

Team now has good starting options (e.g. 2 Princelings, 4 Bodyguards, 1 Thrower, 4 retainer, 3RR = 970k), isn't OP out of the box, has decent development options on the positionals and the Princelings are now viable and probably desirable for both their speed and their S access.


Quoque tu Dode?!?
In red my considerations.... They are viable because you give them big discounts and made them quite better then Humans. While failing at princelings again.
Big discounts on one side and overcost on another is not good balancing.

And beyond this.... what is the point of this team? Are they different enough to be worth having? NO.
I may not love Bretonnia, but at least thay make a point to be different.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:03 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

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Quote:
In red my considerations....
I don't think the Princelings are comparable with Ghouls - team structure is very different. I'd be content with them at 90k though. Don't see the issue at either price on a 0-2, but 90k would allow an apo in the starting roster.
Fend for 10k is based on the fact you're not going to take an all-retainer roster. I think 60k is quite reasonable for them.
Quote:
Big discounts on one side and overcost on another is not good balancing.
I think you overstate the discount.
Quote:
And beyond this.... what is the point of this team? Are they different enough to be worth having? NO.
I agree, but if they are going to be in then at least make them work. I'm not at all married to the above as a fix but you have to agree it's a better starting point than the current roster.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:08 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:21 pm 
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@Dode
I agree your roster is better.

I think 90K on your princelings is ok.

I still think that reteiners at AV 8 with Fend at 60k are too much of a bargain.
I played enough Bretonnia to know that Fend is a stronger skill than it looks AND:
- it get stronger as the player as higher armor;
- it gets stronger the more you have on the pitch (I tried mass fend on Orks and it is incredibly good).

Let's take a look at other balanced 60k comparable lineman: beastmen and pit fighters.
Both are 6 3 3 8. Both have one skill: Horns and Frenzy.
Both Horns and Frenzy are skills that become less useful ore more risky the more you have.
Fend is the opposite. The more you have the stronger it is.

That's why I think 6 3 3 8 on a 0-16 player is too much of a bargain and a big no-no.

They would be ok IMHO as:
- 6 3 3 7 Fend for 50k or
- 5 3 3 8 Fend for 60k (this would have the good side effect of making princelings and their MA 7more desirable).


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:41 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
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I'm aware of how good mass fend can be. I was basically working from the premise that, like with Brets, you won't have mass fend but 4 or so players with it. That said, I like the slower retainers. Nice idea.

0-1 Ogres (as standard) 140k
0-2 Princeling 7337 Catch Dodge GAS 90k
0-2 Thrower 6338 Pass Sure Hands GP 70k
0-4 Bodyguard 6338 Block GS 70k
0-16 Retainer 5338 Fend G 60k
Rerolls 60k

Roster fixed ;)
Not necessary, ofc, but at least workable.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:57 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
Roster fixed ;)
Not necessary, ofc, but at least workable.


Agreed. Workable at least.

Feels a little bit like 2nd ED Humans, with Bodyguards as blockers.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:43 pm 
Experienced
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I get the feeling that the purpose that both of these teams are designed to serve is to use as alternate rosters using the minis out of the box (as others have said previously). It also seems to me that they may be using these rosters as an alternative to Brets and Khorne (neither of these teams are in the current rules of course). I do like the idea of adding some optional rosters that would be playable out of the box for new players and if you do that it is probably a good idea for these rosters to feature some different skills as a tool to teach new players about how these things interact.

I dont know if anyone else remembers the 3rd edition version of the Bretonian team, if feel like this team is sort of going a similar direction to that.

0-1 Ogres (as standard) 140k
(0-2 on these makes no sense, maybe GW was just looking to sell more models?)

0-2 Princeling 7338 Catch Dodge Leader GA 110k
(Why do these guys need to be AV 7? Human blitzers are 7338, slightly too cheap for 3 skill player but since one of them is Leader if you buy both it is really only 2.5 skills)

0-2 Thrower 6338 Pass GP 60k
(I like the idea of making him slightly worse than the normal thrower, but why 70k and why 0-4?)

0-4 Bodyguard 6338 Block Stand Firm GS 90k
(One of the old Bretonian Knights had this stat/skill combo way back when. I also think that having both Stand Firm and Fend on this team would have some interactions with all the frenzy on the Savage orc teams that would be good to teach newer players)

0-16 Retainer 5338 Fend G 50k
(I like how the lower movement makes the 7MV on the princelings more important. Seems to me that a move reduction would equal out the extra skill so 50k should be fine)
Rerolls 60k

TL


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Fist of Gales wrote:

0-16 Retainer 5338 Fend G 50k
(I like how the lower movement makes the 7MV on the princelings more important. Seems to me that a move reduction would equal out the extra skill so 50k should be fine)
Rerolls 60k

TL


5 3 3 8 Fend is 60k, because MA 5 on a basic (human lineman template) player is -10k and a skill is +20k.
They should not be discounted because they are 0-16, and there is a maximum limit of discount you can have.
There is a "team creation" document that Galak was kind enough to post on the forum.
People partecipating to this debate, in order to be useful, should have a look at it and give good reason when they say different.
Please.

"Should be fine" is the way GW people have reasoned to make these teams and Grak and Crumbleberry.
"Should be fine" reasoning is NOT part of the solution. It is part of the problem.
I might say it IS the problem.

BBRC did not make the current rulebook with "should be fine" reasoning. That's why it is so good.

The rest of the post is fine and interesting.
The idea about the blitzers is nice even if dode's has more of an "Occam's razor" approach.
But please everyone have a look at this:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=38335&p=679452&hilit=General+Team+Rules+Galak#p679452

I apologize if I was a bit rough, but "should be fine" reasoning in team creation really pushes my berserk button.


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 Post subject: Re: New race on My Dugout app!
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:04 pm 
Emerging Star
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Princelings..........jeez what a name. That's 2 dime fantasy naming right there.

Why should a lino get fend? Human linos don't have fend (minus the unofficial bret list). For me you need a good reason to give a lino a starting skill. I don't see one for this list.............just remove it.


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