Dwarf Machine / Big Guy / Deathroller secret weapon

[Toby]

Before you continue to read check out this information:
http://us.games-workshop.com/storefront ... abase=1418

A little short on Big Guys who would willingly play for them.
Dwarfs turned to good ole' fashioned steel to help them and built a crowd favorite, the Dwarf Death Roller.

http://www.specialist-games.com/bloodbo ... layers.pdf
Name: The Deathroller / Position: Dwarf Machine / Characteristics: MA4|ST7|AG1|AV10
Abilities: Mighty Blow, Multiple Block, Stand Firm, Deathroller / Cost: 160.000

So we have Star Player Rules and Big Guy rules right now. Dwarf Teams can hire an OGRE (Big Guy), and freeboot THE DEATHROLLER (Star Player). That sucks in terms of balance, and fluff.


To improve that, as a Houserule, this player is to be added to the Dwarf Team Roster:

Code: Select all

0-1 Machine 4|7|1|10, Mighty Blow, Multiple Block, Stand Firm, Deathroller 160K

Dwarf Teams can no longer get an Ogre.
The Dwarf Machine collects Star Player Points. There are no skill categories open to the Dwarf Machine.
Star Player Rolls of 10, 11 or 12 increase the Dwarf Machines MA, AG or ST.
Ageing Result Rolls may reduce the Dwarf Machines Characteristics and make it gain Niggling Injuries.

If you are using the experimental secret weapon rules, remove the Deathroller from the list of availiable Secret Weapons and consider this ability a Racial Characteristic from now on. Dwarf Teams may still buy and use other secret weapons.

If you find something that interferes with living Rulebook 2.0, let me know. Let me also know when someone actually tried this rule in their League and the feedback on it. Thanks.

*Edit* (Dwarf Machines cannot suffer Serious Injury Rolls)

[voyagers_uk]

T.

The only things I would add to this are the penalty roll as it is obviously a non-legal entity (referee fear aside) even if you make it 11+ to show that fear having an effect. And also to make it a non-ball handler as both hands have to be on some part of the machinery to keep it going in a straight line.

Not sure I agree with your idea about it not being allowed skills but allowing Stat increases either.

I am speaking from the perspective of having used a variant of this rule for a 7 match run. The Deathroller is too good if you start allowing either stats or any form of advancement even with a penalty roll. Without the need to freeboot it every game it is a starter due to the lack of ability to kill it.

My Dwarf team went unbeaten for the run as no-one could stop this on the LOS and created a cage 4 squares in their half was too easy.

So to round up Tony, I like the idea and want to have the model but it needs a downside to it more distinct than saying it is unable to gain skills. I am all in favour of Dwarf teams being stregthened as I feel that in a long league they are outdistanced quickly by the bashier teams, but if you added this it would make more people want to play Dwarves to the detriment of the game

[Toby]

The only things I would add to this are the penalty roll as it is obviously a non-legal entity (referee fear aside) even if you make it 11+ to show that fear having an effect.

Erm why add it when it wasn't removed in the first place?
I suggested to use the exact rules described for the ability (Secret Weapon) "Deathroller" in the Living Rulebook. My only change would be, that if one uses the "Experimental Secret Weapon Rules", they should switch the ability categories to avoid confusion.

And also to make it a non-ball handler as both hands have to be on some part of the machinery to keep it going in a straight line.

Come on at AG1, that doesn't happen often enough to bother making a rule for it. If the Machine ends up with the ball, then the Dwarf Piloting it presses it under his shoulder and tabs the gas pedal to head straight into the end zone! Without block it is so easily knocked over this will hardly be a abusable Dwarfen super Strategy.

Not sure I agree with your idea about it not being allowed skills but allowing Stat increases either.

I am. It has a 3/36 Chance to get +1MA, 2/36 for +1AG and 1/36 for +1ST. Fair to say that the Machine, that is specialised to foul, subject to an penalty roll, and badly hurt whenever it is knocked over for any reason, and will never ever get block skill will not gain many Star Player Rolls at all. I can live with 1 out of 36 Machines having a strength increase.

I am speaking from the perspective of having used a variant of this rule for a 7 match run. The Deathroller is too good if you start allowing either stats or any form of advancement even with a penalty roll. Without the need to freeboot it every game it is a starter due to the lack of ability to kill it.

Did your Machines age?

My Dwarf team went unbeaten for the run as no-one could stop this on the LOS and created a cage 4 squares in their half was too easy.

Well I think that the fact that a Machine just needs to be knocked over once to be badly hurt makes it fairly easy to take out. A Big Guy or a dauntless player can do the job without much of a problem.

So to round up Toby, I like the idea and want to have the model but it needs a downside to it more distinct than saying it is unable to gain skills. I am all in favour of Dwarf teams being stregthened as I feel that in a long league they are outdistanced quickly by the bashier teams, but if you added this it would make more people want to play Dwarves to the detriment of the game

In my oppinion Dwarves are weakened by trading their Ogre, who is the best Big Guy overall, for a Machine that has major flaws:
-never ever access to block or any other skills.
-no armour, always badly hurt when knocked over.
-penalty roll.
-fouling rules make it hard to use its special ability "Deathroller".
-high cost.
I think its safe to say that an ogre is way "better".

[voyagers_uk]

T.

well, my Deathroller was subject to aging but got to 16spps and suffered no ill effects.

You may be surprised to learn that I was using that strategy to score, on a touchback the ball goes to the DR and he is surrounded by dwarves with Guard so it is 3 dice my favour all the way to the end zone.

It is the kind of team member that ould not be added until late in team development as it would just eat spps, the team I added it too had 13 players with guard and 5 with stand firm so my cage was good and tough.

At St7 with some guarding pals it is still 2 dice my favour against most big guys/dauntless opposition

the Deathrollers advantage over the Ogre in my opinion is the lack of the bonehead/really stupid roll before it does something, also the knack of ignoring tackle zones during movement is a big plus.


I hate Ogres and refused to use one on my Dwarf team due to the propensity of my leagues members to roll 1's for theirs and mine on Elf teams dodge rolls.

I am reknowned for not being a statistical number cruncher, and rely on the feel for the game, an Ogre feels wrong to me so I will never use it.

As for Fouling, I did not do it with the dwarves until I had the DR, as most otehr teams had a Dirty Player or two and this was a huge leveller.

I like the idea, but just think that if I had a DR with two advances either +1 MA / +1 ST or 2 of one of these then I would be unstoppable. I fear that except in the realms of house rules this will never change.

[Toby]

Since we agree a lot, i want to focus on the "Big Guy Touchback Scoring" Strategy.

Well this is valid, and it is fun, and it works at TR100 to TR150.

But don't you agree that an Ogre can do this even better than a Machine since the Ogre can get back up again if he even is knocked over at all?

However, let alone this discussion shows that the Player Type would be very well balanced. And since it is absolutely better balanced than the Ogre is right now on the Dwarf Teams, I see no reason not to introduce it immidiately or, make it a "official experimental Big Guy" at least.

Exept Thadrin, who claims that it is a "mucking secret weapon". But since he ignores me, i take the comfort to do the same..

as to the advances/level ups:
there are ST7 Minotaurs as well, shit happens.

[voyagers_uk]

Since we agree a lot, i want to focus on the "Big Guy Touchback Scoring" Strategy.

Well this is valid, and it is fun, and it works at TR100 to TR150.

But don't you agree that an Ogre can do this even better than a Machine since the Ogre can get back up again if he even is knocked over at all?.

The Ogre is more likely to be only carrying the ball once and is not going to be ST 7 very often, whereas the DR could be ST9 with two lucky advances. So no, I disagree with that.

However, let alone this discussion shows that the Player Type would be very well balanced. And since it is absolutely better balanced than the Ogre is right now on the Dwarf Teams, I see no reason not to introduce it immidiately or, make it a "official experimental Big Guy" at least.

See there you go, taking a house rule and pushing it into the annual when only you and I could be said to agree out of the 1708 members on this forum

Exept Thadrin, who claims that it is a "mucking secret weapon". But since he ignores me, i take the comfort to do the same..

Now now, mod baiting is frowned upon - as always Tony I will try to promote harmony so please refrain from saying something like this to which he might feel he wants to respond to which will only lead to the topic deteriorating.

Shit does indeed happen, but we should all try to avoid it as it tends to smell.

[Toby]

I think you missed the when I was talking about Thadrin's position on this topic (which is also the position of many other folks). I was wondering why he didn't show up in this topic already .

There was a general consens to trade the ogre for a deathroller in some way in a poll in general chat recently. So people seem to agree on the principle.

As to ST9 Machines, I do not share your concern. Even at ST9, they would be no more powerful than at ST7, since they cannot get block nor tackle nor piling on nothing. There are so many ways to get rid of a Dwarf Machine, and its SPP advancement will make it gain star player rolls very very slowly. The chances to get a single +1ST are <3%; There are way more frightening creatures out there who need less luck to turn into a real menace...

[voyagers_uk]

ST9 Multiple Block does not concern you

wow, I would be a little concerned if I was facing one, even two BOB or Saurii would go down most of the time. Throw in some guarding Longbeards and it is definitely a winning option.

plus Mighty blow.

LOS destruction.

It is probably why I like it, but I am not the commish of our league, that dubious honour falls to GenoNBBL.

He'll never let me have it though.

[Thadrin]

(vampire willow)
Bored now
(/vampire willow)