Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[Tourach]

Well 6 halfling catchers. Its fine with me, think it will help them a bit but not pushing their win % above 45%.
Unless Garion plays them ofc ...

[plasmoid]

Hi Doubleskulls,
OK, I overstated it a bit, because those %'s won't be solid stats anyway. So, to be clear, my "tier 3" goal would be close to 45%, but not above that. In reality, that would mean tier 3: 40-45, tier 2:45-50 and tier 1:50-55. I'd prefer to call them tier 2, low tier 1 and high tier 1.

I know that not everybody agrees with that goal. And I honestly don't care. I don't mean that in a rude way. I merely wish to say that there are clearly people on both sides of that divide, and I'm perfectly happy catering to one side and not to the other.

I just had an email today from a bloke that the 3DB guys put me in contact with. He writes, among other things: "the overall look and feel of the rules make it that it is possible to win with either team and thats about balance... I look forward to testing them as i think that these are better rules that LRB5 and 6 but will see."
His league will adopt the rules for the coming season, and I can think of no higher praise than that.
I know it won't make you, Garion or Darkson like the basic premise one bit more than you already do, and I'm at peace with that

Doubleskulls said:

.... you've basically removed one of the primary purposes of tier 3 - which is to give experienced coaches a real challenge against less capable opponents.

Not entirely, there will still be good teams and significantly weaker teams. But sure, if the skill divide between the 2 coaches is big enough, then yes, they'd have to think outside the box.
As I've stated before, including on the NTBB website, I don't care about that purpose of tier 3. For me diversity has a much higher priority. When such a huge challenge is needed, I think it is easy enough to utilise a self-limiting measure that isn't up to the individual coaches, but up to the league rules. Like a TV-modifier based on past performance.

I hope we can kill off the discussion about whether narrowing the tiers makes sense or not. It does to me, and to enough other people for me to not give it up.

Cheers
Martin

[Tourach]

a rookie h-ling abusing tv

?

well i guess its just how h-lings play. So just remove abuse and see it as it always is, h-ling with 600 tv relying on stars and the chef, and poor dice from the opponent to win (that and him feeding your treemen skinks, but i guess that is a viable tactic on fumbbl...)

[Juriel]

Stout Fellows
0-2 5 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff GA

You could even make the Stoutie ST3 though he'd start getting expensive I suppose.

They wouldn't be stout, they'd be the cage-busters.

With G access, that might happen regardless, as Dauntless.

[garion]

hmm, Tourach I disagree that there was anything dodgy about the dice in that lizardmen match, it is always tough to knock over dodge flings and as you say he fed me 3 dice MB blocks against his skinks. so i was always going to hurt him.

Plus you can't abuse TV with flings, that is how they are played now....??

Anyway. In answer to your question plasmoid - ermm its very hard to say. if that is the only change then no, i dont think it would. if the normal flings all get av 7 and they get the rule where they cant get knocked over by tackle then it may take them over 45%

the problem with 6 ag4 flings is it would make it tougher to play the Tv600 flings, I would probably only start with 2 ag4 flings then use the rest of the av7 ones to soak up the hits.

one of the biggest problems flings have is they have Ma5, which sucks. If that doesnt change then I dont think those ag4 flings would make too much difference.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
thanks for your reply.

I have no intention of bumping their MA. If they have to be that fat, I think fast is out of the question
But as stated, the team will be:
AV7 linemen
AG4 catchers (0-6 or 0-4)
10K off the rerolls.
And the Right Stuff blocks Tackle rule is gone for flings. I moved it to titchies.

Give me your best guess

[Juriel]

I'd certainly give those flings a shot before commenting too much on them. Slow elves (with plenty of sacrificial starting-Dodge players) seems potentially interesting.

AG4 player price determines how many of them people will in practise have, because flings still get so much out of inducements that stacking the deck with all 6 of them might be unwise.

[garion]

I agree Ma5 is fine, it is what makes them suck the most.

One change I always liked the idea of was to allow TTM to work as a long pass again (like LRB4) but only for big guys with Strong Arm. I think that would help them a little bit.

But anyway. How much are all the players going to cost so I work out the starting roster.

[Tourach]

hmm, Tourach I disagree that there was anything dodgy about the dice in that lizardmen match, it is always tough to knock over dodge flings

... in the start the dice are just ridiculous, him rolling one star in 34 block dice, while you did only failed one block? Making his attack come to a standstill (loosing him the game).

and as you say he fed me 3 dice MB blocks against his skinks. so i was always going to hurt him.

it is ... yes! Retarded ... point proven ... (this also cost him the game in the end, having no skinks in overtime.)

Plus you can't abuse TV with flings, that is how they are played now....??

I know. Making the team even more stupid.

Anyways lets stop this, you will not convince me of 1. half-lings needs to be utterly bad per design, as well as 2. being competitive in the hands of a good coach.

[plasmoid]

Hi again Garion,
with the feedback I'm getting I guess I'll be risking the 0-6.

Linemen will be 30K (So AV7 for free)
Catchers will be 50K (So +20K for AG4)
But I'm open to a persuasive argument

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

Well it depends what you consider bad dice really. Personally I would have taken a lot more of those both down options. Rather than push backs. Also push backs are fine for me if i play with lizards. When i play with 2 rr lizards im just happy not rolling skulls. Personally I would still have fancied my chances of winning with his dice if I were lizards. He didn't have any RR that game either did he, and I cant remember many turn overs if any? i can't remeber but there was probably one or two???
But yeah, he should have used his superior movement to win this game instead of getting in to a blocking battle. But he is a good coach. Just possibly not used to playing flings i dunno? The same happened to me vs fling in this seasons tournament that plasmoid is running, i was lizards and was playing against flings, I got out blocked and out cas'd i think I managed one Ko all game and barely knocked anything over at all. I was down by two saurii very early on, and i still won 2-1 i think or was it 3, i dunno. I won anyway martin can testify.

Okay so my starting roster would be

2 Treemen - 240
2 Ag4 fling - 100
7 Flings - 210
1 RR - 50

That would equal 600. So I get 1 less player to start off with (compared to existing roster) which is a pain, but then av7 should help me out there. And I get 2 ag4 flings which is nice for scoring with. My Inducements would then be Deeproot or bertha (or zara against sub 1000Tv opponents) and a chef.

Yeah that sounds good to me. Just please dont put me in the same group as dwarves and chaos dwarves LOL.

[plasmoid]

Looks fair to me. Though I could be biased.
BTW we'll be playing slightly boosted teams. Starting TV130 or so. I'm still thinking about how to do this in a way that is reasonably fair.

As for your request, you can be certain to avoid dwarfs and face CDs.
In tournament 2 I'll put the 12 tweaked teams in one group and the 12 untweaked in another. Each team will then be facing all teams from the other group, meaning all the tweaks will get tested against all of the original rosters. (Coincidentally that means you could play Halflings and Khemri, if you were so inclined).

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

Looks fair to me. Though I could be biased.
BTW we'll be playing slightly boosted teams. Starting TV130 or so. I'm still thinking about how to do this in a way that is reasonably fair.

As for your request, you can be certain to avoid dwarfs and face CDs.
In tournament 2 I'll put the 12 tweaked teams in one group and the 12 untweaked in another. Each team will then be facing all teams from the other group, meaning all the tweaks will get tested against all of the original rosters. (Coincidentally that means you could play Halflings and Khemri, if you were so inclined).

Cheers
Martin

No thanks, I hate Khemri, too boring for my taste. which other teams are in the other group?

I fancy something different. Why dont we play your Kislev team I posted in that other thread

About slightly boosted teams, i think that could be very tricky. Im happy jsut to do the same again really. most leagues only play short length leagues anyway, you just wouldnt have the data for perpetual leagues, if you wanted that I think Botocs could be the way to go for the rosters, you just couldnt change the rules sadly.

[legowarrior]

A skill for landing would boost all the stunty teams can we put that in the game? Or add it to another skill?

[Tourach]

As Garion sais, boosted teams is super tricky.

How do we know that the team progression is right. Every time i tried to play with boosted teams, something was just not right, linemen/BO/sauri and other low ag players had to many skill. Or one could try a team that would have faired badly underways but works well at the current tv, like an (just an idea) all standfirm dwarf team.