Alternative Humans

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:06 pm

High Elves have 2 guys with Block to start, nobody with Dodge, no S access, and no Big Guy. Oh, and they have a minimum total player cost of 770k, so they only really have 230k for positional upgrades/RRs/reserves (Humans, by contrast, have 450k), pay a 20k penalty each for benchwarmers (after the 1st one), and are absolutely required to put 210k on the line (and not like Dwarfs, where that 210k goes into line-packing badness: no, that 210k gets you 3x "schmuck who, if through some miracle left standing, might get away"). Night and day.

Not only that, but this team is almost as good as HEs at what HEs do, at least at low TV (before they develop the power to beat your brains in). AG3/Dodge is better than AG4 for end-of-turn dodging or for dodging after running out of TRRs. AG3/SH is better than AG4 for pick-ups too. And they can afford more re-rolls. HEs would catch/beat them at some point in this category... but by then the Humans will be loaded with Guard and Blodge/SS and Frenzy, and will be beating the snot out of those poor elves. This could be true now, in fact, but for the fact that rookie Human teams just about never start more than 2 Catchers and frequently don't field any at all at 1M. Plus, the fact that their only A access players are ST2 gives humans comparatively weak wide zone control vis-a-vis the various elf teams, Undead, Necro and other teams with ST3/A-access (Norse, 'Zons).

This is why I think the Catcher should be a situational piece, like he is now. Maybe improve him a bit.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:02 pm

How about removing General skill access from Catchers? Would limit the Blodge potential.

~Andromidius

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:10 pm

Or keep him ST2 with G access. That's actually more powerful over the long run than ST3 without G access, and it's fluffier too.

I do think that Ian's on the right track in the sense that the Catcher is the Human team's weak link.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:20 pm

Well what I'm thinking is that S3 protects the Catcher from being sacked by the opposing team so easily, but not having G access means he can't really go on the offensive himself. Thus he focuses on his actual job - catching the ball and scoring.

~Andromidius

Rhyoth · Post by **Rhyoth** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:29 pm

Well, this roster appear to be a good synthesis of everything discussed earlier on :
get Humans a small boost, make them a little bashier, but a little slower as well.

If it really appears to be too good, you can always increase the RR price to 60 k. (yes, 60k RR for Humans sounds strange, but if it's the only way to balance the team .... so be it)

note : Although I prefer Ian's roster, there is another way to deal with Humans problems :
keep the Standard roster, add A skill access to Blitzers (and maybe S to linemen as well).
Thus, Human coaches would, at last, be allowed to train this kind of player (without throwing only doubles) :

Griff Oberwald (Human) 320k 7 4 4 8
Loner, Block, Dodge, Fend, Sprint, Sure Feet

PS : the only players without G access are Big guys (and Mummies) and Minuses : I don't think we should make an exception here.

Wightlord · Post by **Wightlord** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:44 pm

Really like Ians roster - would get me playing my humans at tournaments.

Melipone · Post by **Melipone** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:42 pm

Rhyoth wrote:If it really appears to be too good, you can always increase the RR price to 60 k. (yes, 60k RR for Humans sounds strange, but if it's the only way to balance the team .... so be it).

If that was deemed necessary, I think it would be fairer to just to put the blitzers back to 90k. Almost all human teams start with 4 anyway, and it gives the option of leaving the blitzers out till later for an interesting roster. But I would think some playtesting with the current suggested team is probably in order before that gets considered.

As for the comparisons to high elves....well that's at MOST 4 players with dodge r.e. the end of turn dodging, as opposed to the AG4 across the whole elf team. The other points I can't disagree with. However, if the point for discussion is "this human team is better than high elves"...well I think it probably is. But I thought the point of the changes was to get the humans back up there in the top 6.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:54 pm

purdindas wrote:This is better than the current line-up but I think an AV increase instead of a ST increase would be better at the cost of 80k. If your going to make them ST 3 you'll need to make them more expensive. Like 100k at least.

Geez, some of the nonsense that comes out on this forum. 7337 Catch, Dodge is exactly 80K by the cost formula (Catch being a 1 point skill). Or are you really suggesting that a Ghoul plus Catch is worth 100K or more?

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:02 pm

He has a point though - I think ghouls are very very nasty for their price and are probably the big reason undead win so much.

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:06 pm

SillySod wrote:He has a point though - I think ghouls are very very nasty for their price and are probably the big reason undead win so much.

I disagree on that one. They win because they don't pay for what they don't need - they have very specialised players (as posted elswewhere in ths thread). It's a really different thing with humans, where every player has AG 3, MA 6+, ...

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:25 pm

80k Blitzers/60k TRRs is essentially a 10k price break on a starting roster, paid back eventually, with a 10k break every time a Blitzer dies or gets cut.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:03 pm

SillySod wrote:He has a point though - I think ghouls are very very nasty for their price and are probably the big reason undead win so much.

Really? I've played Undead a lot in leagues, and Ghouls are precisely the reason why Undead don't win much at mid to high TVs (too fragile when everyone gets Tackle and MB, and too expensive to replace faster than they die).

Melipone · Post by **Melipone** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:17 pm

mattgslater wrote:80k Blitzers/60k TRRs is essentially a 10k price break on a starting roster, paid back eventually, with a 10k break every time a Blitzer dies or gets cut.

Whoops, yes you're right - 60k is better. I wasn't considering the full picture (blitzers dying/retiring).

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:01 am

I like it, but I want to be transparent on one point- I would like it if humans and orcs were always among the top 5 teams. I think Wood Elves, Undead, and Dwarves, should join them right now.

I would play humans more this way for sure. Ideally I think the catcher should be faster than the blitzer... but I'd test this.

Alamar · Post by **Alamar** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:31 pm

Jural wrote:I like it, but I want to be transparent on one point- I would like it if humans and orcs were always among the top 5 teams. I think Wood Elves, Undead, and Dwarves, should join them right now.

I would play humans more this way for sure. Ideally I think the catcher should be faster than the blitzer... but I'd test this.

I guess you'd like the above roster based on how good you think Humans really should be.

IMHO I like Humans better when they're an "average" team. I don't believe that I would care for them much being a top-5-team.

As such I don't really like the idea of a STR3 catcher as that would [imho] likely make the team too good too soon.

Of course if folks show me stats saying humans are low tier 1.5 or something like that then I'd be more willing to look at the theory of a bigger buff ....