human catchers...st 2

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:09 pm

absent1 wrote:but with str 2, av 7, and only agi 3 for dodging (which means they fail as much as a 2 die block with no rerolls, like a big guy), well, they are much like a gobo, they are far to crunchy, our human team can only take 2 catchers ever cause the catchers stink so bad.

that's so plain wrong.

absent1 · Post by **absent1** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:17 pm

how? would you ever feild 4 of them? hell no. never. and if they live to 2 skills all of the sudden the tackle mighty blow guys target them and blow them away.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:26 pm

erm, absent, surely you know there is little relation between the number of guys you would field and the number of guys you would get. i would get 2 or 3 Dirty Players but i would only field one per drive. and i would never field 4 human catchers, but i would definitely want 4 of them. what to get instead ? linemen ? no thanks. MA8 guys with agility access can make very good defenders (shadowing, diving tackle, sidestep). with dauntless they become a less powerful version of the dreaded GR/WE catcher blitzers.
and you should have enough money with humans cause players are not that expensive.

absent1 · Post by **absent1** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:41 pm

yeah, you are right, that still doesn't explain why humans are one of the worst teams on the naf and fumbbl though... and i know the blitzers are good, and the throwers are good.... so it must be their linemen or catchers right? and the catchers are total garbage, so my money is on them

sorry gus i just don't agree humans are balanced, or that they are worth playing in any way. we'll just have to disagree would be my guess.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:52 pm

absent1 wrote:that still doesn't explain why humans are one of the worst teams on the naf and fumbbl though...

Well, according to the those figures, they're only slightly worse than Orcs, so I guess the Orcs need a boost to?

absent1 · Post by **absent1** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:08 am

um, orcs are 11 naf, humans 14, BUT orcs highest rating is 224, humans are 184, and

fumbbl

orcs win % and humans is close, but orcs are +.4 cas ratio(3rd best), humans -.4 cas ratio(worse than norse and zon, who suffer in leagues) (orcs are higher win % too), and i beleive that there are human only leagues on fumbbl that artificially inflate their numbers (correct?)

so orcs in leagues might be close in win %, until the human team gets retired to cas's, and in tourneys the top orc is far stronger than the top human, why? cause orcs are much much better than humans

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:55 am

sorry absent, but the humans are NOT underpowered. they are probably not the best race to cherrypick with, and most of the time they are coached by starting players (read: complete newbs). hence the stats.

absent1 · Post by **absent1** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:07 am

but orcs are often coached by more skilled players? (no

) why then can even the best human coach not get within 50 points of the best orc coach, naf point wise, surly you wouldn't call the best human coach a newb? it's cause the race won't allow people to win enough to get that high imo. sorry gus we just disagree, and that is ok, thats why this is in houserules, not at the vault

Xtreme · Post by **Xtreme** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:55 am

houserules, not at the vault

Thank you for that.

One headache dodged.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:57 pm

maybe because orcs are more forgiving, with the bashy approach, while humans actually require strategy ?

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:13 pm

Gus wrote:maybe because orcs are more forgiving, with the bashy approach, while humans actually require strategy ?

Gotta agree there. I'm an average coach (at best!) and I can keep, and play, an Orc team much better than a Human one.

Bizzy · Post by **Bizzy** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:26 pm

I can't in full disagree with absent.

Humans have no strength.
Humans have no weakness.
I can't agree with that.

They can't out bash a bashy team.
They can't out finess a finess team.

Then how is it a team that can run circles around them just runs away and wins, while a hard hitter crunches them and they die?

ST2 catchers should only be for catchers that are rediclous to start.

Lets see

Gutter Runner ~ are ST2, they have physical access AG 4, and MA 9.
Those guys are pretty good.

WE Catchers ~ they are ST 2, have AG 4 and MA 9.
THey are also good.

Human Catchers ~ have ST 2, Dodge, AG 3 and MA 8.

All of those have access to general and agility.
What upper hand can a human get on either of them.
The human can't make up for its loss while the other 2 easily can.

The human blitzer has the normal 7/3/3/8 gen/strength. So he is no more gifted than any other blitzer and when you move to the finess teams they have an upper hand with AG 4 and swap of strength for agility.

The linemen are meh. 6/3/3/8 I think. Gen access. THat is a good lineman. Even if they have MA 5 tehy are a good guy to put on the line to hit/be hit.

Thrower comes with sure hands with is great for a thrower. Elven throwers have AG 4 helping them and many times the bashy teams lack a thrower.

Big guy is a liability or a great player your choice.

But on that mini list I made it shows no strengh of humans which we all know.
They do have a weakness. By not haveing any strong point the other teams use theres and win. Bashy teams hurt your players make a cage and storm through. Finess teams just run around your guys wave good bye and score. Lizardmen, and Necromantic (all around good teams) have strength in speed and bash. They hurt the weaker players on the poor humans then run quick to score.

Now the real kick in the ass.

Pro elf catchers have ST 3 NOS.

Now I know the Gutter runners, the Pro elf catchers, and wood elf catchers all have AG4 and an advantage. You will say "they cost X more then a human" Well who can it hurt to jack the catcher price up?

Just my thoughts

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:19 pm

see how your approach can be easily reversed against you, right ?
you say that elves outplay humans and bashy outbash them.
well, i say that humans outbash elves, can hold against other bashy teams, and have the speed/skills to outplay bashy teams.

Bizzy · Post by **Bizzy** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:55 pm

I expected you or anyone to say that. Because myself will say play to their weakness.

But when it comes to elves running away you ahve to catch them which aint always easy.

I will use a couple of examples.

Orcs vs Humans.

Orcs have teh upper hand on knocking down and hurting the humans.
They also have the advantage when it comes to building a cage against them. Throwing that goblin for the Turn 8 score can happen too.

Humans are faster and can slightly run around the orcs.

Humans vs High Elves

The Elven armor is equal to the Human armor and the elves are over all faster.

Just trying to say humans can try to play to another teams weakness but it sometimes is easier to play to a human weakness then humans playing to my weakness

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:46 pm

saying that HE/DE have the same armour is just plain wrong. they have av7 players, otherwise they are not very scary. they don't have access to ST skills, which in turn means waaaaaaay more bashing on your part, so overall an armour which will break down more often.