The Pacts

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:35 pm

Grumbledook wrote:I am with lucien on this, i don't think messing about with the existing teams is necessary or required.

I am a bit unsure on what the whole "pact" thing is to start with anyway, can someone explain what this actually means please

I don't see the point in having a "choas dwarf slave team" like you suggested there, i mean there is only 2 actual chaos dwarfs, not much of a choas dwarf team is it.

Also letting teams have lots of varied player types like these kind of takes away from the character and the feeling of the teams, they look more like a "group" rather than a "team".

The rosters all seem to be equal and working fine as they are, why start messing about with them?

Grumble ... the pact teams are NEW teams not meant to replace ANY current team. They are the new method being experimented with to bring back teams with allies since currently there are no official rules for allies in Blood Bowl despite the fluff and history being filled with examples of it happening.

Galak

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:49 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:There are days I'd be pretty happy if we agreed on an alternate universe theory for BB so I could have my Slann, Weres, and Half-Orcs back.

i'm with you on that one... though i'm not so keen on this notion of "bloodbowl is the modern era in between fantasy and 40k nonsense that i hear so often... face it, bloodbowl is played in a subdimension inhabited by the otherwise unknown Nuffle, god of competitive struggle, and created in the likeness of the wfb prime material plain in an attempt to show the higher-order gods that when the world is ruled not by avarice and politics, but rather by sport, perfection and harmony can be achieved... (now, if only nuffle could sew up all those loopholes int eh rules, maybe he'd be right)...

Agreed but I'd like to see a Creeper type team return to BB .. .just me.

and if someone shows up with converted miniatures that accurately represent the creepers, which is to say skaven and goblins that share an overall visual character beyond paint alone, then give them the roster they deserve, but don't make the roster for an exceptional (literally) team before they need to be there...

And I, Galak, would like to see them, but then again you know my attitude about the number of teams available to coaches to choose from.

sure, i have no issues with variety as a concept (i've certainly provided my share of rosters and miniatures to support this over the years), but game balance and the essential requirements of good game design must be the focus of these expansions... adding a roster that lets you field cool minis is one thing, but that roster must follow a pretty tight set of conventions, and one of those conventions is 'thou shalt not design a team that is good at everything', somewhere under that is 'thou shalt be stoned for even suggesting teams with both ag and st of 4 anywhere on the roster' etc and so forth.... mixed race rosters invariably break most of the rules we force upon people who are creating new rosters in general... somewhere along the way, that fact needs to be pointed out...

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:58 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:Grumble ... the pact teams are NEW teams not meant to replace ANY current team. They are the new method being experimented with to bring back teams with allies since currently there are no official rules for allies in Blood Bowl despite the fluff and history being filled with examples of it happening.

yeah, but remember that the vast majority of the mixed-race fluff speaks of the _failure_ of such blendings, including that of the underworld creepers! the chaos all-stars are the opnly mixed-race team to see any real success, and lets face it, they're not accurately representable in game-play...

the only other place where mixed-race tams have been indicated as regularly successful (outside of the fluff associated with these new pact teams) is in dungeonbowl, but mixed race teams were kinda the point of that suppliment and even then it says that those teams do very poorly at the regular game of bloodbowl!

fluff mentions mixed-race teams, fluff doesn't glorify them... they have the stigma of failed experiments and freakish exceptions to the norm... i'd say that we don't need systems for allowing them into leagues, we need a crazy commissioner and a crazier conversion-minded coach to come along once in a blue moon and use off-the-cuff rules if we're going to accurately recreate this portion of bloodbowl's splendor...

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:15 pm

Good to hear the rosters aren't going to get messed with.

Like Lucien said, you don't want to allow players to field teams that are good at everything, but I am sure everyone with any sense could see this. I have never liked the ideas of allys or mixed race anyway, i feel it takes away from the characters and feeling of the individual races.

Teams like the underworld creepers do have their own character though, it would be nice to see them. Goblins and skaven don't make a team good at everything, but to start fudging up making more and more teams like this, its the first step on a long road making a mess.

I don't object to making new teams, like adding the half orcs and the other old teams, or indeed coming up with some other concepts as well. If you make enough teams like this, you will eventually cover all the different styles and play types without the danger of having st4 and ag4 on the same teams. This isn't the same as having mixed race or pact teams though obviously. The reasons for pact teams is to get different styles within the same race, or things along these lines. This won't recreate the underworld creepers, but if a team is created with the similar stats and skill combinations that would appear with skaven and goblins, then it wouldn't be hard for someone to simply use different models, ir the skaven and goblins, and use that "new races" makeup. Sort of along the lines as using the gridion team players as either amazon or humans.

I am sure thats enough waffeling along from me, feel free to pick at stuff, as i am sure people will, after all sensible adult discussion is far better than mindless arguing.

Norse · Post by **Norse** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:23 am

From a fluff perspective, I like the idea of mixed race teams. The painting and modelling possibilities are almost limitless and I think, if used sensibly, a few extra players for theme can be a great thing. Like most, I'm concerned that we avoid a situation where teams compensate for their weakness by buying talent, as opposed to growing it.

Another alternative to PACTS (which in principle I am OK with) would be to allow X number of allies per team (1 or 2, no more) but at 1.5 times normal cost. Let's face it, it would take a whole shed load of cash to convince a Wardancer to leave the forest and live in a big city to play BB.

In this way, if a human team wants an Elf or Dwarf ally, it is feasible, but it should continue to be the exception to the norm.

What would be nice is for teams to trade in players. This is currently only possible in all human leagues, but I would like to be able to haggle wih other coaches to buy their better players. It would make everything feel a bit more 'real' from a coach perspective.

My Dwarves lost both runners last week, permanently. My team has no shortage of cash, but I don't want to start with 2 rookie runners again (the last 2 had 32 and 39 SPPS

).. Under these rules, I could approach a human team and buy a blitzer from them, but at very high cost. A bit like the gamble current coaches take when buying 'stars' like Ronaldo who only seem fit every 4 years when the World Cup comes around...

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:35 pm

I think the pacts are still unbalanced. Especialy when combined with the kicking rules. Right now (and this could change tomorrow) I'm planning on having 3 big guys for my front 3 with a Gutter Runner for a kicker.
Basically I feel that if I play a smart, conservative defense I should clean house. (Galak, Chet and others will chime in and say that kicking a FG is hard to do but I've run the sims. AG 4 and MA 9 help ALOT! If I really need a TD I already have experience with a minotaur running back.
To me this doesn't seem fair vs. vanilla human team but we'll see.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:50 pm

We'll see ... I still think Pariah you are going to find kicking Field Goals instead of scoring TDs is a good way to lose.

It will also depend on which of the 40 coaches you play against. Lou, Tony, Chet, Dave, Tim, Sean, Jon, Jim, and myself all have played 40+ games with the kicking rules. We know how to set up our defenses with these new rules. The other 30 coaches ... well against them you might have a chance until they learn.

Galak

High & Mighty · Post by **High & Mighty** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:55 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:The other 30 coaches ... well against them you might have a chance until they learn.

DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:22 pm

Don't misunderstand me.
I'm not going ONLY kick fieldgoals. That gutter runner will serve a duel role as a thrower as well.
My beef about balance comes from the fact that I bought an AG 4 MA 9 kicker for the same price as as several other team's AG 3 MA 6 kickers.

(Now of course he doesn't have kicking skills available but I think very long legs, nerves of steel or pass block will go along way for this player.)

Now I don't know how good of a defense you have but I don't know too many (non-pact) teams who can hold the LOS against 3 big guys and 2 marauders.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:32 pm

I don't need to hold the LOS to block a kicking game.

Actually a good kicking defense against Skaven and Wood Elf is to protect the back field and side lines. You almost let them have the middle field.

But we'll see ... we'll see. These rules are a pain to program, so I'm punching keys in my free time as fast as possible.

Galak

I've got 7 things left to program in procedure wise and the 2.3 beta version will be ready to be posted for download.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:41 pm

Again, I'm not saying I'm going to kick every turn. I know you have tried the kicking rules, and I know the kicks aren't easy to do.
My point is that my team has very little weakness to it. My lblockers are all ST5, my passer is AG4, my kicker is MA9/AG4, My blitzers blitz at ST4, my linemen all have block. The only weakness on the team is the AV7 of the linemen. Whoopdeedoo. They only cost 50K. The high reroll cost didn't stop me from getting 3 big guys and 2 rerolls.
Now, like I said, I'm not saying we are going kick 1 turn score every turn. Do you think I took 3 big guys to score alot? No. I plan on beating the crap out of teams until they CAN'T stop the kick.
Do you honestly think that a team of halflings can take the ball from me if I recieve, give it to the gutter runner, and spend the whole half playing 'keep away' and 'smash the 'fling?' I hope your treeman show up.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:42 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:Agreed but I'd like to see a Creeper type team return to BB .. .just me.

Galak

Nope, not just you. They were my 1st (non-plastic) 2nd ed team, so I go a bit misty eyed.

There again, i'd like to see a Dark Elf/Skaven team - not fluffy I know, buy back in the dys when they were both just evil races it seemed to fit then, and the Cavern Crawlers did quite well

.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:30 pm

I'm trying to set up a test league with the 3 mixed-race teams from BBMag3. In the meantime, however, I'm content to make the following changes to the team in my own league for playtesting:

1. The 0-4 position is reduced to 0-2.
2. The Dark Elf comes off the Chaos Pact list of Allied Races.
3. The High Elf comes off the Old World list of Allied Races.

If the secondary race is set to 0-2 instead of 0-4, then allowing that race as an Allied Race gives that race "double representation" on the team list. And that's really more what I was aiming for. As for the Elves, plenty of people scream about this. I think they're a bit overwhelmed by memories of unadulterated Chaos teams playing with Dark Elves, but that's me. The teams will still be pretty good otherwise.

ObCP: I took my Chaos Pact team to the shop for some extra minis and a paint job. I'm going with some non-GW Troll, a Minotaur, an Ogre, a pair of Beastmen, two converted Goblins - one may have been an old Plaguebearer model, we're not sure, but they're both slightly larger than you'd expect - an Orc Thrower, a Norse Blitzer, a Skaven Kicker, and half a dozen Marauders. Oh, and a Chaos Warrior. Should be fun, but nothing unbeatable.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:33 pm

Oh, and my league's vision for a Chaos Dwarf Slaver squad is this one:

0-12 Hobgoblin
0-4 Chaos Dwarf Blocker

Allied Races: Orc, Goblin
Big Guys: Bull Centaur, Troll, Minotaur

Re-rolls: 60,000 gold pieces

As the CD roster doesn't exist in my league, the CDBs are 0-4 instead of 0-2. Remember, they aren't very numerous.

-Chet

P.S. The BCentaur is 6529, Sure Feet, Thick Skull, 130K.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 9:11 pm

Underworld Creepers? Rest assured that my painting contest entry is the first figure of what will eventually be a full team. Gonna do a player now and again as an individual piece between other stuff and lavish some time on each one (pretty much the same as LF's doing his Chaos All-Stars). Should be fine looking teams when they're done.
They'll be hitting the table, no question.