Alternative Humans

katadder · Post by **katadder** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:46 pm

if they had str3 catchers they should be dropped to 2 blitzers like the elves (pro and high) who also dont get a big guy.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:19 pm

That could work. How many teams have all four Catchers on the roster?

~Andromidius

purdindas · Post by **purdindas** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:16 pm

Joemanji wrote:
purdindas wrote:This is better than the current line-up but I think an AV increase instead of a ST increase would be better at the cost of 80k. If your going to make them ST 3 you'll need to make them more expensive. Like 100k at least.
Geez, some of the nonsense that comes out on this forum. 7337 Catch, Dodge is exactly 80K by the cost formula (Catch being a 1 point skill). Or are you really suggesting that a Ghoul plus Catch is worth 100K or more?

I feel this is a bit harsh but I suppose its bound to happen if I dont read the thread properly.

If the catcher is +ST but -MA then 80K is fine. If he was ST3 and MA8 then 80K is to cheap.

Anyway I whole heartedly support this team idea. Good job Ian

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:08 pm

Another problem is if Catchers are reduced to MA7, then Blitzers should be moved down to MA6. Even if both then get Sprint or Sure Feet to make up for it, that's more danger added to the team that really isn't needed.

On reflection, Catchers should stay S2, but get AV8 to keep them alive a little longer. I know alot of people have said this before, but it is making sense the more I think about it.

Also, possibly reducing them to MA7, but give them Sprint and Sure Feet at no extra cost. Makes them a tad more dangerous to use, but encourages more risky plays. And you'll never get an MA10 one turner, no matter how lucky you get with rolling advancements.

I think that would make Humans an average team if you play it safe, and capable of being more finesse if you're willing to make some risks.

~Andromidius

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:44 pm

Jural wrote:I like it, but I want to be transparent on one point- I would like it if humans and orcs were always among the top 5 teams. I think Wood Elves, Undead, and Dwarves, should join them right now.

I would play humans more this way for sure. Ideally I think the catcher should be faster than the blitzer... but I'd test this.

I largely agree with this. Humans, as one of the original 6 from 3ed Blood Bowl are meant to be one of the top 6 teams. I don't want them to be over the top - but definitely a clear tier 1 and seen as one of the most useful teams.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:06 pm

If you give Humans 80k Blitzers and 60k TRRs, and bumped Catchers up one AV point at no price shift, here's what you'd do to the 1M Human purchase dynamics:

550k: minimum player investment
180k: ubiquitous 3x TRR
120k: ubiquitous 4x Blitzer
20k: ubiquitous Thrower
Subtotal: 870k
Remaining: 130k
= Ogre, Catcher, Thrower or Catcher
= Apoth, Reserve, Catcher
= Apoth or Reserve, second Thrower, 2x Catcher, 20k banked
= Apoth or Reserve, Catcher, 4TRR

Why does the Catcher need to be ST3 again? That team is tough as nails (well, AV8 nails).

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:44 am

From my first post:

The purpose is primarily to put humans a bit more towards the neutral bash/pass - particularly with reference to the relative bash/pass status of Norse (who should be more bash) and 'zons (who should be more pass).

That's why S3 catchers. This roster is intended to go alongside the alternative 'zon roster.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:44 am

With ST2/AV8 Catchers, this team is significantly bashier than (and less passy than) your rewritten 'Zon team. AV8 Catchers are stick-in pieces. Even though they won't be throwing hits, they can be left to man-mark opponents (not big guys)*, and it actually makes sense to go the DT/SS route for a dedicated safety. Little changes can have a big impact. Besides, 'Zons have no Ogre.

* If the opponent can't/shouldn't move an assist up, a rookie Catcher with AV8 is actually a great way to mark a rookie ST4 player. Likewise a Catcher with Block or Wrestle against ST4/Block. This is especially great after busting a cage on defense or caging up on offense: all the action flows suddenly away from the marked player, and if the story changes, the Catcher with his superior MA is likely to be better-positioned.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:03 am

ianwilliams wrote:
Jural wrote:I like it, but I want to be transparent on one point- I would like it if humans and orcs were always among the top 5 teams. I think Wood Elves, Undead, and Dwarves, should join them right now.

I would play humans more this way for sure. Ideally I think the catcher should be faster than the blitzer... but I'd test this.
I largely agree with this. Humans, as one of the original 6 from 3ed Blood Bowl are meant to be one of the top 6 teams. I don't want them to be over the top - but definitely a clear tier 1 and seen as one of the most useful teams.

I should say that I don't think it's smart to aim for that spot, only that if they were aimed to be square in the middle of Tier 1 and ended up there, I would be happy!

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:13 pm

0-4 Catchers 8337 Catch, Dodge GA/SP 90k

The more I think about the new catchers, the more I think they need MA8.

or

0-4 Catchers 7337 Catch, Dodge, Sprint GA/SP 80k

katadder · Post by **katadder** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:15 pm

7337, catch dodge sprint for 80k? what the, lol thats crazy, should be 100k for that.

I have no problems with humans getting str3 catchers keeping all current stats if their blitzers are lowered to 0-2

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:59 pm

Bah.
This game needs more real catchers. Not less.
All these ST3 pseudo blitzers are freaking me out.

If you want catcher-blitzers, make your 2nd skill dauntless and dish it out at high speed

Podfrey · Post by **Podfrey** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:19 pm

ianwilliams wrote:Geoff I'd be interested to hear what you think of my alternative human roster.

Fundamentally I think you've approached it from the wrong direction. If I'm reading things right, it seems like you've decided that humans should be a running team and amazons a "throwing" team (I won't use the word passing as I don't think that proposed roster stands much chance of getting or keeping hold of the ball, merely chucking it round the pitch and praying - before dying)

The one word that should epitimise the Humans is flexibility. They almost achieve this with fast Catchers, unflashy Linemen, skilled Throwers and the very versatile Blitzers. When Humans decide to run at an opponent wholesale it's actually quite scary - that speed can be daunting. What it seems you're trying to do is force them down an alley of playing only a running game, which I think stifles this flexibility.

My advice would be to concentrate on firstly getting Humans to where they should be in Tier 1 THEN worry about other races. Do I think ST 3 catchers with less MV is the way forwards? On the face of things it looks like a minor boost but it will change the dynamics of the team and, whilst opening new doors, will also close others behind it. Tread very carefully if you follow this one through - as others have said, 8 x MV 7 ST 3 with Block and/or Dodge is a nasty nasty team and that's before you consider what the team looks like with one or two stat increases.

The LRB 5.0 Amazon roster is actually OK as it is. All this business about Dwarf mis-match is a mis-nomer. Dwarf players rarely gain Tackle as a skill, meaning that normally there is only 5 opposing Tackle on the pitch at any given time (the Dwarves normally field all positionals), maybe 6. That's only half of the opposing team to worry about, and when the Dwarves get isolated 1 on 1 vs Amazons they'll only roll an injury vs their opponents about 22% of the time vs 18% chance of turning over. The Amazon/Dwarf match up makes it difficult for Zons, but not a total mis-match. But the Zons will always struggle to dominate other races due to AV 7 and MV 6. As for the roster being "boring" that's not the case at all. The statline is similar, yes, but the roles each player have on the pitch makes the team tick or not. Find the right role for each player position and you'll find the team far from boring.....! And whilst I'm at it, stop already with this crazy notion that Fend will in any way, shape or form stop them being utterly creamed inside 2 mins flat

. Skaven and Woodies get away with AV 7 Linemen because their offense is so quick/mobile and their defence is so dangerous (one sniff and the ball disappears

).

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:32 pm

katadder wrote:7337, catch dodge sprint for 80k? what the, lol thats crazy, should be 100k for that.

Ghoul 7337 Dodge 70K +catch +10K sprint for free.

Sprint for free isn't that big of a deal.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:34 pm

plasmoid wrote:Bah.
This game needs more real catchers. Not less.
All these ST3 pseudo blitzers are freaking me out.

0-4 Catcher 8238 Catch, Dodge GA/SP 80K