Re: NTBB Milestone!
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:36 am
I'm confused (nothing unusual there!) - I thought the SG on Plasmoids list was in addition to the CRP SG? Did I miss somewhere where it was said it's a replacement?
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Yup I believe the sneaky git change replaces the existing one, but i may have that wrong.Darkson wrote:@Garion - why would you think they'd roll twice? They don' t now, and I can't see anything on Martin's list to indicate a change in that direction.
Almost spot on. Version 3 is actually LRB 4 with FangPOMB. FangClawPOMB would be even worse! The Death-spike is because of the old stunty rule. NTBB version shaves (almost) 10 percentiles off the cas' and even more off the KO+, so I consider that quite a buff to the stunty sidesI would guess 68.8/37.9[4.5] - CRP, version 3: 68.9/48.2[8.0] LRB3, version 2: 52.2/28.7[3.5] NTBB.
Unless you were counting Claw RSC in here as well from lrb4, but you didnt say that
That's your prerogativeI certainly wouldn't take your new sneaky git on anyone.
I honestly did too. But in reality my playtesters couldn't be bothered with it, so we went looking for an alternative.3 looks good too but I liked the fouling guard effect as well.
Yup. The intent was for CRP to max out teams around 220TV. When JJ vetoed the Bank rule, he allowed (especially the bashy) teams to amass cash and venture way above that.But do like the idea that teams can’t amass a huge amount of money with no detriment.
I think the availability of SG for the SWs will be a nice boost. Heck, the bombardier will now have a skill worth takingGoblins - I would like something to keep the secret weapons on the pitch more, maybe give them the new sneaky git in place of 3rd troll?
I actually think this boost is bigger than it looks! I think these might breach bottom of tier 1. But hey - after all the ogre team didn't use to be tier 3 in the past.Ogres – I like this as it is not a big change.
Halflings are tricky. I tried Dryads. I tried an extra Chef. Ended up with some AG4. At least it's fluff based. And differentHalflings not keen on AG4 but can’t think of a better alternative.
I probably would have, if I hadn't bumped orc blitzers to 90K. Humans at 90K and orcs at 80K was just wrong.tend to agree with Galak about human blitzers being 80K too as they are good players but tend to die a lot.
Yay! Shambling death FTW.I think this is the most interesting Tomb Guardians I’ve seen and might make khemri a bit more fun to play.
I honestly do too.Tier 0
Agree with all them except that I want you to change zons more and get rid of flat 6337 stats.
I genuinely disagree with the thought that balanced equal boring. Because balanced does not mean similar.Yes something else I am totally against, making skills more equal all skills equal = boring game. Its like making all cards in magic equal. It would completely suck, I have specifically made skills better to make more skill interesting, like the old stand firm was (except without making it too good)
Eh? I changed almost nothing.I do not want Claw to becopme vanilla, I think you have taken it too far the other way now.
Well, each skill category has its bread & butter skills. I think that can't be changed without a massive overhaul.I dont think it will, those teams might take claw and tentacles now, but they will not look beyond that because the others all stink
Well we will see next season if anyone bothers with sneaky git i guess, but it would suprise me if people found it of any use other than on secret weapon players only. Which as said could be handled with secret weapon rolls better anyway.plasmoid wrote:Almost spot on. Version 3 is actually LRB 4 with FangPOMB. FangClawPOMB would be even worse! The Death-spike is because of the old stunty rule. NTBB version shaves (almost) 10 percentiles off the cas' and even more off the KO+, so I consider that quite a buff to the stunty sidesI would guess 68.8/37.9[4.5] - CRP, version 3: 68.9/48.2[8.0] LRB3, version 2: 52.2/28.7[3.5] NTBB.
Unless you were counting Claw RSC in here as well from lrb4, but you didnt say that
No I didn't I wrote a lot about Pilling On. I have always said the change to Claw was a great piece of game design, although I felt it should still be a Trait, and also felt Chaos dwarves should not get access to mutations unless they are random, but they are different issues.plasmoid wrote:Eh? I changed almost nothing.I do not want Claw to becopme vanilla, I think you have taken it too far the other way now.
Considering the endless number of whine-posts about Claw, I think a small nerf is in order. I think it is certainly a common perception that Claw is a bit much. (Didn't you use to write prolificly on the subject?)
Yup I agree with you there. It is certainly better than CRP even without the roster changes.plasmoid wrote:Hi Garion,
you're right that comparing editions is a bit tricky.
But certainly the situation for stunties will be a lot better than it is now.
I only agree a bit on this design goal. I do like the idea of narrowing the tiers a little bit but first of all they shouldn't be narrowed to much and secondly I don't think it has a high priority and therefore teams shouldn't be narrowed at the expense of other valued things like fluff or gameplay.NTBB wrote:Don't get me wrong - I don't want all teams to be equal. Heck, they can't be truly equal. What I want is for teams to suck or shine by a narrower margin.
I don't like 10k discount on re-rolls fluff wise. I don't like a 3rd troll because it's a goblin team and not a troll team.NTBB wrote:The Goblin team has been gifted with a 3rd troll - that will make it a lot harder to contain the trolls and hunt down the Goblins. Sounds scary, but playtest results have been good. They also got a 10K discount on rerolls.
Yes, the ogre team definitiately needs a buff. I like 10k off the ogres and 10k off the re-rolls.NTBB wrote:The Ogre team is punching way below it's weight - and snots stink. 10K off the ogres and 10K off the rerolls will give them a better starting team and a TV more true to their ability. Snotlings have also been buffed in 3 ways: MA+, AV+ and Titchy prevents opponents from using Tackle against them on the block dice.
I like this a lot but giving them even more positionals is an idea I like even better.NTBB wrote:The rotund little Halflings were the hardest to get right. I've considered allied positions and an extra Chef - because what Halfling positional could make a real difference? AG4 could - and Halflings were unusually agile in the fluff. So - the team has been split into linemen (5237) and catchers (5246).
I don't like this fluff wise because humans don't really have thick skulls. I also think this buff to the vampire team is a little bit to strong because they arent that bad at the moment.NTBB wrote:The Vampire team gets Thick Skull on the thralls - making the team slightly less likely to self destruct. In buffing the thralls I rejected a classic 6338 statline because it would have to be 50K, and that wouldn't be a buff. Besides, the human species seem to be 6337 + skill, so it fits the template just fine.
I don't like this fluff wise.NTBB wrote:The Underworld team just got a 10K discount on the rerolls.
Very good changes, but like I talked about earlier I think the price of the ogre should be reduced even further by 20k instead instead of 10k. An ogre will then cost 120k which is the same price as in lrb4.NTBB wrote:The Human team gets 10K off the ogre, but the Human Catcher also gets an AV increase for free. This will make him the toughest catcher in the game, which is only fitting because he sure ain't the most reliable. This should stop him from being too much of a target and thus more likely to see play.
Very good changes.NTBB wrote:The Khemri BlitzRas and ThroRas are overpriced because the team used to be very powerful. It no longer is, so they gain Thick Skull, to better match both their Linemen and their Price Tag. Tomb Guardians exchange the no-fun Decay for a basic AV8, and gain Break Tackle for an additional 10K - which should make the team rather more interesting to play.
I'm pretty neutral to this change. The only thing I have against it is that if a change isn't important enough then I think you should stay with tradition.NTBB wrote:The Dwarf Slayers trade Block for Juggernaut - after all they're suicidal! Having all their AV8 players start blockless will make dwarfs more vulnerable.
I definitiately don't like this one because of traditional reasons and because I think the team will become much more boring to play. Wardancers SHOULD be that cool blodge, leap, best-player-of-the-game type of player that it has always been. If something should be changed for Wardancers it is Block so that they can pick Wrestle later without overlapping block. So perhaps Block should be traded for Fend but definitiately not Dodge.NTBB wrote:The Wood Elf Wardancers trade Dodge for Fend. This most likely will push Strip Ball back a bit on the development curve, giving other teams some time to respond.
Very good change.NTBB wrote:The Orc team is not open to an obvious skill swap, so instead the Blitzers will be priced more fairly at 90K.
Very good change giving G-access back to mummies again.NTBB wrote:The Undead Mummies trade Mighty Blow for Grab. Their long term boost is access to G-skills. They actually used to have this, as they aren't big guys. This is likely to mean Block for developed Mummies, though they may want Mighty Blow and Guard first. And first skill-up will take longer to acquire without Mighty Blow. Also note that Grab stops them from taking Frenzy.
I like Wrestle instead of Block on blitzers. Amazons have always been a problematic team and therefore fitting changes to it is always welcome.NTBB wrote:The Amazon Blitzers trade Block for Wrestle. Surely useful, though not is great as the power of Blodge. To strengthen them in long term play, all Amazon gain access to A-skills - and to prevent the Catchers from becoming redundant, I've given them Diving Catch for free. A-access should keep the Amazons deadly with the use of mainly Side Step and Jump Up.
Very good changes. I especially like that you have nerfed Claw too since just Claw + MB is to powerful against av9 at the moment.NTBB wrote:1a. Piling On: Piling On can only be used to reroll the injury roll.
1b. Claw: Claw works on a roll of 8 or more before modification.
Very good change.NTBB wrote:2. Fouling: A generic +1 modifier now applies to the armor roll when fouling.
This change is either brilliant or very bad. I more suspect it's very bad and therefore I'm very much against it. I believe it will make fouling WAY to good, especially when combined with bloodweisers. The only thing I like about this is that it will be possible for secret weapons to come back. But that can be fixed in another way by not letting secret weapons get ejected automatically and instead make a roll for them like it was in lrb4.NTBB wrote:3. Sneaky Git: When a Sneaky Git is sent off by the Referee (including for carrying a Secret Weapon) he is sent to the K.O. box of the dug-out, and may recover in the normal manner.
Bank rule is of course a very good rule to stop people from collecting millions of money at low TV and then use it at high TV where money is supposed to be a problem. But I think the limit of 100K is a bit low. Why not let teams stash up 200K instead?NTBB wrote:4. Bank: A coach may stash up to 100K cash in his Bank at the end of the post game sequence (or when creating his team). This cash is unavailable until the next post game sequence - where it is immediately moved back into the treasury, (and can be affected by Spiralling Expenses). Cash in the Bank does not count towards TV, but cash in the treasury does.
Bad change. Cap shouldn't be lowered.NTBB wrote:5. Spiralling Expenses: Standard Spiralling Expenses should be set at a starting point of 180, with steps of 10.
Slightly harsher Spiralling Expense settings should help bring down the cap a bit.
You are helping elves more than you are helping big basher teams by setting a high cap. Right now it's pretty much impossible to get more than 11 players with elves at high TV in scheduled leagues thanks to spiralling expenses. With a higher cap elves can finally afford some reserves which I think they should be able too. I play pro elves in a scheduled league and I constantly play with only 7-10 players and the rest journeymen thanks to spiralling expenses. In lrb4 it was possible to have 12-14 players with pro elves in schedules leagues which was much more fun.NTBB wrote:The SE levels are entirely optional anyway, but any league commissioner changing them to something higher should know that he is making things easier on the big basher teams.
Very good change. But I wonder if it's enough on high TV.NTBB wrote:7. Wizards: Wizard price increased to 200K
Glad to hear it, because your list didn't quite read like thatOverall I like NTBB much more than CRP.
I'm glad you like the idea. It was basic premise of NTBB to do simple fixes, so multiple new positionals could not be part of NTBB.Halflings:
Based on the limited playtesting, I don't think anyone will be skipping the slayers. They're still good - just not as good as before.Dwarfs: