Alternative Humans

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:35 pm

stashman wrote:
katadder wrote:7337, catch dodge sprint for 80k? what the, lol thats crazy, should be 100k for that.
Ghoul 7337 Dodge 70K +catch +10K sprint for free.

Sprint for free isn't that big of a deal.

On that piece it is.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:29 pm

100% agreed Stashman

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:11 pm

plasmoid wrote:100% agreed Stashman

87.5% agreed. This guy doesn't need a price hike to go with the AV bump, as the Human Catcher was already sort of a marginal value. Broken record moment: Humans are one small-but-identifiable bump away from just right, and the Catcher is the weak link. So a slightly better Catcher is the first thing one should try. If that doesn't work, get more aggressive maybe.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:54 pm

Hi MattG,
AFAIK, the step up from AV7 to AV8 is 20K, so getting it for 10K is a very fair deal IMO.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:58 pm

So here is the team as we all wan't it...

0-16 Linemen 6338 G/ASP 50k
0-2 Throwers 6338 Pass, Sure Hands GP/AS 70k
0-4 Catchers 8238 Catch, Dodge GA/SP 80k
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block GS/AP 80k
0-1 Ogre 5529 unchanged S/GAP 140k

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:21 pm

plasmoid wrote:Hi MattG,
AFAIK, the step up from AV7 to AV8 is 20K, so getting it for 10K is a very fair deal IMO.

On paper I agree with you, Martin. But these guys' problem is that they're getting knocked around, and a price-increase kind of defeats (or mitigates) the AV bump in solving the problem. Also, the status-quo Human Catcher isn't a great deal. Compare him to similar players (all 0-4, I might add):

Skaven GR: +1 MA, +1 AG, -Catch, M on doubles, +10k
Woodie Catcher: +1 AG, Sprint, +20k
High Elf Catcher: +1 ST, +1 AG, -Dodge, +20k
Pro Elf Catcher: +1 ST, +1 AG, Nerves, -Dodge, +30k, with team baseline durability
Ghoul: +1 ST, -MA, -Catch, equal price, on a team with otherwise-poor ball skills

He's a bad deal right now. A free bump fixes that.

katadder · Post by **katadder** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:10 pm

how about you take the idea of human blockers, remove blitzers entirely and turn catchers in blitz/catchers (or runners, recievers whatever you want to call them):

blocker
0-4 5339, block 90k G/S access

blitz/catcher
0-4 7338 block, catch 100k G/A access

prisma · Post by **prisma** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:09 pm

@ kattader: there you go, brettonia...

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:23 am

stashman wrote:So here is the team as we all wan't it...

0-4 Catchers 8238 Catch, Dodge GA/SP 80k

That isn't how I want it. At 80K that's a nerf if anything.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:26 am

Joemanji wrote:
stashman wrote:So here is the team as we all wan't it...

0-4 Catchers 8238 Catch, Dodge GA/SP 80k
That isn't how I want it. At 80K that's a nerf if anything.

But at 70k that's a little boost on the right player to get it.

IMO.

purdindas · Post by **purdindas** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:01 pm

This discussion centres on whether to make catchers AV 8 or ST 3.

If the catcher is to be changed it has to be in such a way that wont mess with the overall dynamics of the team. Like lucifer said, this could be tricky to achieve.

The catcher is the player who needs a change in order to boost the team as a whole and we have clearly identified him as such. Human catchers are broken in a bad way. They dont last long in my teams and even if you do manage to cage up lucky break-ins result in him getting smeared onto the pitch.

Humans are supposed to be an all round team. The thing is I dont think they are. They are week on the offence compared to the rest of their game IMO. I think the +ST could be the boost that this roster needs to improve the offence. Is it to much though? I think not. With MV7 this balances out IMO. This also fits with what I imagine humans should be like compared to the other races. ie. Slower that elves, less fancy but stronger physically.

If you change the catchers move, does this then create problems with the rest of the roster? People are concerned with catchers and Blitzers both being MV 7. We could make blitzers MV 6 to compensate for this. Does this start a chain of dominoes however? And what about his cost now!? It's only an idea...

Podfrey · Post by **Podfrey** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:26 pm

purdindas wrote:The catcher is the player who needs a change in order to boost the team as a whole and we have clearly identified him as such.

Well, I'm not so sure of that. We all try and keep BloodBowl as BloodBowl and not pseudo American Football, but in this regard I think the Human team has to adopt and adapt one of the American Footy principles to be at its strongest - splitting Offence and Defence. I say adapt as there are some players who play a dual role - one on Offence and one on Defence - whereas American Footy normally has 2 distinctly different teams of 11 (or however many

).

The Catchers are fast, but weak armour and not strong. So you bring them on when YOU control the pace of the game and usually use them to score quick, shielded by the Blitzers who are busy making holes and getting to places quickly. Any Human team fielding 3 or more Blitzers and 3 or more Catchers SHOULD have a reasonable shout at being able to punch a hole in the opposing line and get that ball through and in the End Zone. So they're OK on offence.

You then kick and take the Catchers off again and replace them with Linemen who are more clearly suited at holding up the opposition (ST3, AV8), this time using the Blitzers to harry the opposition, utilising their speed to exploit any gaps and trying to grab the ball free. Sure, you may field one catcher to have an ultra mobile point of assist, but don't automatically expect them to last the whole drive if you do.

This is where the human flexibility really comes into its own. Or at least should.

However, because the Linemen aren't really up to the job of holding the line on defence, the Blitzers have to forget about their best role and instead act as glorified linemen to prevent the breakthrough. This in turn robs the Humans of their best strategy. So, in order to counter this and boost the Humans it's not the catchers that need to change, but the Blitzer/Line interaction and relationship. Basically either turn the Blitzers into supermen (AG 3 Wardancers) OR reduce the need of them to cover the line and free them up to perform the role they are meant to, i.e. bring in more defensively minded players such as the Blocker position.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:52 pm

The thing is that human catchers are quite good in defence. They are good at tying people up and absorbing blocks (dodge/sidestep) as well as being fast enough to be useful at turning a drive around if the ball pops free. The problem is that they just dont stay on the pitch long enough if your opponent plays a grinding drive.

Thier av7 prevents them from being able to soak up hits properly. This means that a lineman has to do the duty instead which robs humans of their flexibility on defence.

purdindas · Post by **purdindas** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:54 pm

lucifer wrote: However, because the Linemen aren't really up to the job of holding the line on defence, the Blitzers have to forget about their best role and instead act as glorified linemen to prevent the breakthrough.

This I agree with. I'm forever using Blitzers to support the Linemen because the linemen suck. I dont know theirs much that can be done to 'fix' linemen out of the box? I normally build them up by taking block/wrestle, fend and the like. This helps in league play but not with a starting team obviously. If you try to improve these players their value will go up and this concerns me. eg. If they started with fend they would have to be worth 60k minimum. This doesnt help with the current roster but if blitzers were made cheaper then it could potentially work.

What about the Blitzers? How to change them withought destroying the character of the team? Wardanceresque blitzers seems to destroy their humanity. Not they way forward in my opinion.

On the face of it I still think the catchers need a boost but you might be on to something Lucifer. With more blitzers free to smash holes and help out the catchers humans would be better on the offence and made harder to turn over.

katadder · Post by **katadder** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:54 pm

without doing major changes to the human team then changes to blitzers or catchers will have a large effect. making catchers st3 will effectively give the humans 8 blitzers in a team (after catchers get their 1st skill) which is why i would be against this unless they lowered blitzers to a 0-2.

or theres my suggestion I made earlier which is make blitzers blockers (ie slower) and catchers into blitzers/ball carriers etc

katadder wrote:how about you take the idea of human blockers, remove blitzers entirely and turn catchers in blitz/catchers (or runners, recievers whatever you want to call them):

blocker
0-4 5339, block 90k G/S access

blitz/catcher
0-4 7338 block, catch 100k G/A access