Narrow Tiers and Galaks Wish List

[Daht]

Yeah but the 2 man abuse trick only works if you are teaming up with someone to fix it, or are the league commissioner. A 2 man team won't work for itself.. playing 30 online games to build 2 players while building a 0-30 record in any leage with other live bodies would never fly.

[Digger Goreman]

My deepest, gamer, gut feeling is that "Avoidance" teams (aka "finesse") are not disadvantaged.... Modifying the PO rules is a clumsy engineering attempt to advantage the already advantaged....

Even in our supposedly "bash" heavy league... and the last few similar leagues (even the ones that had elves in the ladders/rosters) PO was not a problem.... And may I suggest it is so because of the accounting solution we implemented: Spiralling Expenses starting at 1.5 million, with 50k increments.... You simply can't afford to have a lot of skills clogging up the roster....

The only real way, and it's never been solved, to deal with avoidance teams (as a non-avoidance team) is to annihilate them.... Nerfing PO takes away a needed tool to deal with the non-Blood Bowl teams....

[dode74]

I don't think the suggested change to PO adjusts the overall advantage to any team or type - all of them have their odds of being removed reduced by 21-22%, so it works out pretty evenly. Balance is maintained. The main issue is that a lot of people were whining that BB is too bloody (!) on the bash teams, particularly with claw, so this changes the source of carnage away from blocks and towards fouls a little.

[legowarrior]

Plasmoid, you going to make large changes to the Amazons that will win us over?

[plasmoid]

It won't make first round (i.e. year) of playtest.
But several people have suggested that not mini-nerfing amazons is a glaring omission.
I'm not sure, I generally don't find them that great, but I may be in a minority.

Anyway, lots of cool sweeping stuff could be done.
Might even be a nice new roster.
I'm just not sure it would be amazons then. If they need that much of a do-over, they might as well be deleted.
Either way, my project was never about sweeping changes - but about minimal fixes.

As stated elsewhere, I'd fix them in much the same way as the other nerfs: Replace a strong skill with one of the new skills.
In this case, turn Blitzers into wrodgers rather than blodgers.
In my opinion that would be a substantial nerf - but I'd love to get feedback on that.

As far as I can tell, nerfing them like that would call for a long term buff.
I've already been ridiculed on FUMBBL for considering a krox.
I've also considered better skill access (GA linemen)... But really, is that enough to help a team that already struggles at high TV?

Perhaps I should arrange for a round table discussion with some amazon coaches...
Cheers
Martin

[Da_Great_MC]

When tournament play is considered, Amazons will get a huge advantage, seeing a lot of the other top tier teams being nerfed (Wood Elves, Undead, Dwarf, Orc).

Considering Mummies: have you thought about this? Change Mighty Blow into Grab, don't give acces to general skills, lower the price to 100K

[legowarrior]

The FUMBBL forum is a lot different from what is seen here in TFF. I'm not a fan of how they reacted to the thread. Still good luck with everything.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
thanks for your replies.
I'm sorry it's taken me this long to reply - I hope it hasn't killed the discussion

Anyway, regarding the 8 rules, it's a fairly stable picture. #1 (Piling On) and #8 (Wizard change) are the least popular. I wouldn't mind giving up the wizard change. But I feel more passionately about PiOn - IMO Ian/Galaks solution is still too harsh on AV7 teams. Either way, I'll wait for the playtest tournament to run it's course before changing anything.

On to the teams
I've sorted the replies by team rather than by individual poster. Here goes:
As already mentioned, the changes to undead, goblins and halflings seem to raise the most questions. I'll keep that in mind, when the time comes for evaluating the playtest results.

UNDEAD
A lot of people worry about the G-access. A few have asked why a boost is even needed.
A lot of coaches have told me that undead performance drops off rather sharply TV170-ish, and that a nerf to mummies would really kill performance. So I've listened to that and opted for some compensation. Spubbbba wrote a response (page 2) to the criticism that I very much agree with. Only thing to add to his post is that Grab will prevent Mummies from taking Frenzy - so block is what we're talking about here.

ORCS
Some have asked why orcs are even in the line of fire.
IMO - and according to a lot of people I've talked to - orcs may not have a great average performance, but in early play they do rock.
IMO losing the thowers will not make them weak chaos. For one thing they're all AV9. Besides, throwers didn't make any good coaches play orcs in a funny/passing way. It made them play classic stomp, but with an option for 2 turn-TDs (on top of the TTM option). It's like suggesting khemri would play more fun/crazy with a catcher. Nope. They'd still play stomp. They'd just have a blodger.
I cut the Throwers because I wanted to minimally gimp starting/tournament teams (no Sure Hands), but I don't think it will be a big deal. And I wanted them down to 10 positionals as a matter of personal taste.
Removing gobbos could have been nice too, but I think it would have almost no impact.

HALFLINGS
OK - dryads aren't popular.
Not sure why - they fit the forest friends theme, and halflings even have a dryad star player.
Ah well. Problem is what to give them instead.
A halfling positional sounds cute, but could it have enough impact? It will still be a pretty weak piece.
(I like the thought of a bomber, why could uproot your own trees).
4 loner trees is a definate no-no (IMO). You'll have a rooted team in no time!

OGRES
Too much revision? I think they need a lot of help!
Like Duttydave I considered (preferred!) AV6 snots to MA6 snots. But Galak wanted them to die, so...
As for the MA6, they actually were as fast as human linemen in 2nd ed., sort of (4+2 and 3+3)

As for why Pact ogres are still 140K - I'll blame it on the access to mutations

HUMANS
Yeah I think all 3 changes would go too far.
Humans are actually (low) tier 1 already, so they don't need much.

KHEMRI
I can see decay fitting TGs from a fluff point of view. But it's a nasty gimping on an already sorry team.
Besides, I don't get why zombies and possibly flesh golems don't have it too.
Just ger rid of it - it has no on-pitch effect anyway.

Finally - VAMPIRES
I don't want to fiddle with new rules like injury modifiers etc. Roster changes for individual teams is what I've chosen to do.
Someone suggested AV8 thralls instead.
I don't see why.
IMO, you couldn't change them to the most basic statline in the game - 6338 - without changing the price to 50K. And at 50K I'm not sure it would be a boost.
Besides, we know humans are 6337 + 1 skill.
Norse are +block. Amazon +dodge. "Human" +AV. Thralls could be +Thick Skull.

...
A bit messy perhaps. Please check out my post on 'PiOn, Undead, Wizards and Flings' for more comments.
Thanks all
Martin

[Finoldin]

Hi,

Gonna to give my frenchy opinion about those proposals but first let me tell you I am a passing game lover and member of 400+ active coach French mega-league called FrancoBowl. We have a classic long-term league system based on ever increased elitist divisions of 40 coaches. We are currently using Cyanide, one match per week for the official championship. We also have many more short competitions, including international ones. Many of our players like me started Bloodbowl at the end of the eighties or early nineties.

We are now having a hot debate because we are not planning to erase teams on a regular basis – like in many other leagues - and we have already this long-term nescent trend there, with a strong dominance of heavy AV bashy teams at high TV (with some still surviving woodies not playing the passing game really). I am sure that any coach playing long-term competitive championship does not see much of AV7 at TV over 2100 for long. They get one day or another crushed and then basically they get wiped out of the elite championship as matches go on.

Although I am not sure how a CRB2 will become reality and approved, personnally, I am more than welcoming the proposed set of modifications toward this reasonable nerfing of the bashing game here.

First, I agree with the 2 sets of rules: Races are not made to be equals (this should be clearly stated in CRB2) and that the tiers system should be narrower. As stated, if you want challenge you can have it without making jokes on some rosters… For example, for the qualifying of the Cyanide WC II, I have played a woody team without RR and did not buy any when I could buy one (nor did I take the “leader” skill).

I want to repeat that the Tiers system is very dependent on the TV level… and the Tiers for TV1000 are quite different from the TV2200 tiers… For example High-Elf, Chaos, Rotters are clearly Tiers 2 team at low TV while Amazones are tier 0 at low TV.

As for the rosters modifications, they go in the right direction although I would aim also at more of game play biodiversity … like the thing done for the human! Bravo (Agreed that 2 changes are enough but the blitzeer 80k could be the one kept with the AR8 option) ! For Halflings, a permanent cook brings more tactics to a match than another positional because it does bring a different strategy than any other roster or any additionnal player type in it (as it was tested in LRB5 and 6). I think – like Ian – that snots are good enough like this and if more movement is really needed, then sprint should be fine. I would be for buffing High-Elf, Chaos, Rotters with “temporary” boost like with a skill which would help them a low TV… BUT with a touch of biodiversity (not a touch of pure competitiveness) such as boosting High-Elf Blitzers with a skill linked to the passing game (like diving catch or pass block) or CW with claws (or something else to make them a real terror - as intended - for the already dominating high-armor team like dwarf or orcs), etc.

As for the 8 rules amendments:
1. Nerfing PO… I am all for it!
2. Fouling boost… great idea!
3. Sneaky Git… Ian is right… the suggested proposition is going to the right direction but still not far enough… it won’t still make it a useful skill (and far from being a competitive skill).
4. Right Stuff… yes!
5. Bank… This is clearly VERY necessary… the way the CRB is now, it is too unbalanced toward High AV in long-term competition. In a way it would also solve the often counter-intuitive (read … not fun) game play on using the team cash reserve for pre-match inducements.
6. Lower Spiraling start level with quicker increment is a welcome recommendation!
7. Concession… good!
8. I would side with Ian and Galak here, on the wizard man.

Again, BRAVO to you to keep on working on a better future for BB!

[Daht]

"IMO losing the thowers will not make them weak chaos. For one thing they're all AV9."

4 black orcs = 4 slow clumsy chaos warriors at -20k

4 Blitzers = 4 Beastmen with block instead of horns, +1 av, +20k

Linemen = +1av, -1ma, no horns, no st access bst at -10k

Troll = very sturdy but slow Minotaur

and of course no M access anywhere

Orcs are disadvantaged at every position, their only style change/advantage would be using goblins as catchers.. with no throwers. They become weak (as in less effective, or lower tier) chaos. You could even give linemen st access at no extra cost and they don't stack up.

They need a ball handler. Maybe change thrower to a 'runner' type.. give sure hands, 6 move, and remove passing skill access without doubles...



The biggest issue with the tier system is tiers are different when you go from tournament to single-season progressive seasons, and different again when you go to persistant leagues.. and AGAIN when you adjust spiraling expenses. Amazons and Undead have 2 of the biggest tier effectiveness when going from low-tv static to long term effectiveness.

[plasmoid]

Hi Finoldin,
thanks for your comments. First French coach to comment I believe. A year from now, when I hopefully set up a play by email league to further test this, I hope you can help me spread the word

Anyway - It's interesting to hear that your league too is slowly getting dominated by the heavies. And I'm happy to see that you're liking the rules - except the wizard one. Feedback on that has not been very positive, so I expect to scratch that once the first playtest tournament is over!

I totally agree that the power of team is very dependant of TV, and that a lot more tweaks could have been made. Heck, I was tempted to do a lot more stuff. But I decided to contain myself:
1. I didn't want to change more than half of the teams - the game simply isn't that out of whack.
2. I decided to focus on the very early and very late TV-development. The rest of the TV-range is only temporary, and I think the balance is reasonably good. I think the biggest issues are with the very start (which all leagues/tournaments go through) and the very long term (which is in a way 'permanent').

Cheers
Martin

[JaM]

I think fleshgolems should be 100K again, not 110.
And I also think human catchers should get their av boost, and perhaps lower the blitzers to 80K.

Orcs should keep their throwers, you could argue losing the gobs or reduce them to 0-2.
But having 4 gobs on the team certainly gives you variaety (or however it's spelled).
They are like the assassins on the DE team: you certainly can play without them, but they add something to the team... to each their own.
I dont think that removing them weakens the team that much.

Just my 0.02 €

[plasmoid]

Hi Daht,
I agree that chaos is better than orcs at high TV. Heck, they're better than most teams.
But I disagree that orcs would be 'like chaos, but weaker'. Orcs have their own advantages.
And It low to mid TV, orcs beat chaos.
(Also, part of the rules pack was designed to hurt extreme high-TV teams - like chaos.)

While it may not be a big deal against chaos (with claw) AV9 on everyone is a big deal against a lot of teams. I've done enough beastman hunting to know the difference. Orcs also have a shot at OTS, which is nice. And in the test matches I've played, my gobbos did some pretty spectacular things from time to time.

Cheers
Martin

PS - the orc fix doesn't have the elegance of the other nerfs. There's just nothing obvious to do. I'd like to hurt them ever so slightly for short term & tournaments, but not do any serious damage long term.

[dode74]

I'd like to hurt them ever so slightly for short term & tournaments, but not do any serious damage long term.

How about removing Sure Hands from the thrower in favour of some other skill (or make them 6339 Pass, but that may not be a nerf ) but leaving the team otherwise unchanged?

[plasmoid]

Hi again Finoldin,
I forgot the most important bit.

Originally I was dead set against a rostered master chef - I think a team ought to be carried by it's players rather than it's coaching staff.
However, you make a very good point with the whole 'diversity' thing.

Given that and the fact that my idea for positionals have not been recieved well, I just might come around to the master chef.

I think it would have to go something like: 100K for a rostered chef. Induce an (additional) chef for 100K.

Cheers
Martin