Talk Fantasy Football

Darkson wrote:

mattgslater wrote:You may have noticed that a) the actual house rules people use in LRB6 BB tend to come from a pretty basic menu (at least compared to the old days),

For now, but that's how the house rules for 3rd ed started as well, and that got to the point that a group in the next town was effectively playing a different game.

I wasn't around for 3rd ed. But the way I see it, the rules we have now are much closer to what I want than LRB4 was.

A few fairly minor tweaks are all I need. A major revision would be more likely put me off than encourage me.

I'd take something very similar to the CRP+ or a subset of it.

I really don't need change just for the sake of change.

Fassbinder75 wrote:The issue isn't with Blood Bowl, its with all the competing games that are live with manafacturer support that will bleed away the community simply because they offer 'shiny' that is the lifeblood of the hobby game industry.

The NAF is the only Blood Bowl community organisation with sufficient legitimacy to keep the ruleset fresh, but it seems quite happy to wait at the altar in the vain hope that GW will come rushing back ...some day ...maybe - and even then I don't think they have much appetite for change anyway. We need a BBRC.

Exactly. The ruleset has flaws, but less so than in previous editions. Fixing them would improve the gaming experience, I can't see why somebody would be against an adequately justified change, but even if nothing changed Blood Bowl would still be a great game.

However, we don't live in isolation, and players will move on to greener pastures once they feel the game is stale. Sure, hardcore players will stay around for a while, but a constant loss of players would have a very negative impact on the whole.

macabeo wrote:

Fassbinder75 wrote:The issue isn't with Blood Bowl, its with all the competing games that are live with manafacturer support that will bleed away the community simply because they offer 'shiny' that is the lifeblood of the hobby game industry.

The NAF is the only Blood Bowl community organisation with sufficient legitimacy to keep the ruleset fresh, but it seems quite happy to wait at the altar in the vain hope that GW will come rushing back ...some day ...maybe - and even then I don't think they have much appetite for change anyway. We need a BBRC.

Exactly. The ruleset has flaws, but less so than in previous editions. Fixing them would improve the gaming experience, I can't see why somebody would be against an adequately justified change, but even if nothing changed Blood Bowl would still be a great game.

However, we don't live in isolation, and players will move on to greener pastures once they feel the game is stale. Sure, hardcore players will stay around for a while, but a constant loss of players would have a very negative impact on the whole.

I don't really agree with that.

BB is better than any of the games that I have seen. Sure, people will like a change but I suspect most of them will be back.

the rules that make the game 'stale' are easily tweaked and are mainly an issue in certain environments and TV levels.

You can try adding more teams but I suspect that most people don't have the time to play all the teams that we have.

I think BB could benefit from some years without any major changes. Fassbinder's concerns are quite legitimate, but I think that is a long-term concern, and that the existing hope that the game will get supported again only seems foolish because it's unlikely in the immediate present. Grandma Wendy will eventually come to her senses. The game is not dead, just dreaming.

In the meantime, the core of BB coaches will hold together and evolve slowly, supporting a cottage industry, for as long as we work it. BB is an awesome game, and even without proper treatment or support this better mousetrap has a beaten path to its door. I've played 1000 games on FUMBBL now (exactly 1000: 507-199-294 if you're curious), and I don't feel like I've done it all, or even close.

The lack of support hurts, but in some ways it's an asset: for example, there's no power creep. Chess hasn't been updated in decades, and hasn't seen a rules revision per se in centuries. It gets zero support from the original manufacturer. And yet….

I suppose a half way house would be to have a BBRC like entity (as part of the NAF?) that produces a set of optional house rules. That allows for things like the Bank rule and any other typical house rules to be widely adopted if people want, without there being a different variation on the theme in every gaming club.

That more or less exists within the rules as written, on page 32. Could use a significant expansion, though.

mattgslater wrote:I think BB could benefit from some years without any major changes.

Unless I'm mistaken we've had some years without any major changes by now.
I think it would be good for the game if we adressed the few remaining problems.
I'd take CRP+ and run with it

Cheers
Martin

I'd steal a little from CRP+. Frankly, the only rules change that I think is absolutely critical is some kind of value escalator for players with optimized skill-stacks, and I think that's easily enough accounted for with, say, +10k at 31, 51, and 76 SPP. Which is to say, I think we'd not all agree on how much to modify from CRP, and a "here are the rules, here are some officially-sanctioned ways to spice it up, flavor to taste" approach may be the best. Blood Bowl doesn't need a new rulebook every five years, 'cause it doesn't have the problems of a "living" game that always has to put out new mechanics and then consolidate them all and work out power creep, perversities, immiscible mechanics, and other kinks. Instead it becomes sort of a dominoes or poker, where there's one core ruleset that never changes, with little variations going in and out of vogue.

CRP+ isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.

I was gonna say it is the best version ever, but then I think I might be slightly wrong on that as LRB 5+ or LRB 6 might get that accolade, but I haven't got a copy of those LRBs to check on.

I would like to see a few revisions here and there, but can happily live with what we've got.

One of the most commendable things about the "new" teams (Slann, Underworld, Pact and Khorne) is that they haven't suffered from powercreep and the team designers (Galak and co) have done a great job because of that (although a min-maxed Pact team can be overpowered, but that would only be in an artificial match-maker environment I would say).

I've not played with/against the Apes of Wrath but as per the other new teams, they look to be balanced and do genuinely add something new and are I think a completely unofficial team which the community has come up with.

Aliboon wrote:One of the most commendable things about the "new" teams (Slann, Underworld, Pact and Khorne)

Khorne aren't (thankfully) one of the "new" teams, and a stain on the BB landscape if I'm honest.

Khorne aren't (thankfully) one of the "new" teams, and a stain on the BB landscape if I'm honest.

I'd agree with you there from a fluff perspective, but at least the team isn't (massively) over-powered, which it could very easily have been.

The khorne team made me a bit sad- I guss that is the sideefffect of no development of the game - Cynide who wants new stuff commissions it instead with little understanding of the game and game world.

Agreed. That was some weak design. Wants a rewrite badly. Like total overhaul from the ground up.

IDK why Khorne needs his own list to begin with. Just play Chaos, paint them brass and red, and give everyone Frenzy as their first skill. Not an optimal build, but then I don't think the Blood God cares much for TDs anyway.

feeder wrote:IDK why Khorne needs his own list to begin with. Just play Chaos, paint them brass and red, and give everyone Frenzy as their first skill. Not an optimal build, but then I don't think the Blood God cares much for TDs anyway.

There's no need for anything in Blood Bowl. Its just that new stuff, even if just a different stat line and skill combination is fun, for some people anyway. I agree that the vanilla Chaos list is probably the most 'Khorne' of the Chaos teams, but fluff adherence is probably about 5% care factor for me.