Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

[dode74]

Fumbblers like their big teams

As Galak says, this is a large part of the problem. At very high TVs those teams which start with good stats but fewer skills (Chaos, and to a lesser extent the various Elves) will tend to do well, as that is their "sweet-spot". I can see how this would be interpreted as a CPOMB issue, since at those high TVs the killers become numerous.
If I understand it correctly one of the goals of CRP was to maintain balance over a perpetual league, and given the varying sweet-spots of the teams it would make sense to make a fairly low soft-cap through SE so that it is hard to get the high-TV sweet-spot teams to that TV and maintain it (which is where the bank comes in, I believe), and it also means that the lower TV sweet-spot teams (those with poor stats but good starting skills such as dwarves) can remain competitive, with inducements and decent star players helping to make up the gap. The current SE puts that soft-cap in the 2400-2500 range, which I personally think is too high (certainly for MM) and nearer 2100-2200 would be better - if I had the option I would set SE at 1800 with 100 steps and take away the extra cash for concessions (or at least limit it based on the proportion of a game played). Surprisingly (and purely by accident, I don't doubt) the SE setup for Naggaroth of 2000 with steps of 50 actually works quite well, imo.

While I am certainly in no position to tell people how they should play the game, if Galak is telling them that they are trying to play it in a way which it was not intended to be played then it's probably worth listening to him

[GalakStarscraper]

While I am certainly in no position to tell people how they should play the game, if Galak is telling them that they are trying to play it in a way which it was not intended to be played then it's probably worth listening to him

I wanted to expand on this. I'm a HUGE believer in house rules. So what this means is if a league loves high TV teams than I'm ALL FOR making some house rules to let the game better allow it.

Where I get rubbed is when I read on a site like FUMBBL that I'm an idiot rules designer because FUMBBL Black Box has issues with the CRP because are not aimed at the type of environment they want. There is no way for BB to be all things to all leagues. That is why the rulebook encourages house rules. We added the one page list of "approved" Optional rules to try to drive that point home.

My point being that what I see with FUMBBL Black Box is someone trying to flip eggs with a flat head screwdriver instead of a spatula and then berating the designer of the screwdriver that it sucks at flipping eggs.

Tom

[Warpstone]

Fumbblers like their big teams.

Then that is there issue ... the design goals of CRP were specifically to effect those teams. JJ really wanted that but wasn't in his head able to understand how the bank helped with that ... so we lost one of the pieces of the tower we built to do what he said he wanted.

Tom

QFT! I don't hear much whining about balance or bias before TV220+, on either tabletop or online.

BTW, Galak, any real engineer knows that you should be able to solve all design problems with paper plates and duct tape.

[voyagers_uk]

and ball bearings...

[koadah]

Where I get rubbed is when I read on a site like FUMBBL that I'm an idiot rules designer because FUMBBL Black Box has issues with the CRP because are not aimed at the type of environment they want. There is no way for BB to be all things to all leagues. That is why the rulebook encourages house rules. We added the one page list of "approved" Optional rules to try to drive that point home.

I am sorry that you get so much stick on Fumbbl but I don't really think that the Black Box is the problem.

Some people just don't like the rules. That's it Galak. You can't please all the people all of the time.

I play in the Box and it's fine. If you go to high TV you get a beating. Around 1400-1500 you might meet a min/maxer. Past 1700 there is not much diversity. The beatings & diversity were just as bad if not worse under LRB4.

What ever rules you put out some people will moan about them. And some people be more polite about it than others.

Many think that C-POMB removes players too easily. That is not specifically a Box issue.

I say that I don't think that the bank helps the box because teames rarely go past 2100 no matter how much money they have. Most don't spend much time over 1800.

[dode74]

Are the same problems evident in other formats, like leagues? If not then the problem is clearly the context the ruleset is being used in and not the ruleset itself.

[koadah]

Are the same problems evident in other formats, like leagues? If not then the problem is clearly the context the ruleset is being used in and not the ruleset itself.

Trying to be as clear as I can Dode.

The problem is with people's preferences and expectations.

In Leagues issues are dealt with in a more direct fashion. If members don't like playing too many bashers they restrict the number of bashers.

The biggest leagues have been doing this since at least LRB4 if not before.

Some seem to fear that box is dying.
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpB ... ic&t=20667

But it is still doing much better than it ever did under LRB4.

[dode74]

Is there any chance you could link to a thread explaining the differences between box, ranked, league etc? And are the expectations/preferences different there?

[koadah]

Is there any chance you could link to a thread explaining the differences between box, ranked, league etc? And are the expectations/preferences different there?

LOL.

Are you really interested in reading a load of bickering, insults and silliness?

Some descriptions of the divisions are here:
http://fumbbl.com/help:

As for threads you can probably use the search function better than me. If you had a look at the linked thread you'll get the gist of how it all goes.

Leagues are leagues. No problem there. Some of the biggest e.g. SWL or WIL like to keep the racial balance of the league fairly even.

That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with teams being overpowered just that people want a certain amount of diversity.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group ... group=6340

In the [R]anked division people choose their matchups so the bashers may struggle to get a game depending on which skills they took. Multiple claw/RSC & DP etc teams couldn't get games in LRB4 so they all ran to the box. The box eventually died.
Team builders will favour [R] as they can avoid bashers and reach high TV with an almost perfect team. People can also cherrypick 'easy' games vs weak teams or rookie coaches.

ox you must play who you draw and not concede easily. There will be a lot of killer maniacs as those teams cannot get a game in [R]. Diversity doesn't really seem too bad below 1700/1800. Very bashy after that. Many think C-POMB is a problem, some don't. Some like it regardless.

[R] & both have the 15% TV range limit. In both divs big elf teams tend to lay low until the Majors come around.

We're having fun right now in the [L] div emulating an open division using some of Galaks proposed house rules. No 15% TV limit.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group ... group=7542

That's my opinion anyway.

[dsavillian]

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group ... group=7542

That's my opinion anyway.

How long is that league of yours open for?

I might join to re-learn how to play on FUMBBL

[koadah]

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group ... group=7542

That's my opinion anyway.

How long is that league of yours open for?

I might join to re-learn how to play on FUMBBL

Haven't really decided yet. It was all a bit spur of the moment.

It will keep on rollling with new 'leagues' so join when ever you can.
We've had to start a second league already.

If you haven't played for a while we use a cooler new client now.

[dode74]

Ok, so the fact that people are unable to get games with high TV bash teams in L or R may be adversely affecting the makeup of B. It seems that B would be the home of the high-TV bash team, since that is pretty much the only place they can get a game. Given the structure it's unsurprising that people complain about lack of diversity and too much bash in B. Further, given that bash teams are largely reliant on keeping a full compliment on the pitch then the downward spiral that you see when you start losing players on a bash team is exacerbated by the fact that you play many more bash v bash games and the TV-based MM, so games will be decided earlier through the bash contest and having a smaller-than-desirable compliment of subs; lots of CPOMB will likely win you that contest.

I suspect the overall structure is making the apparent problem worse in B.

[spubbbba]

I think I should point out that not everyone in [R] uses the free choice to seek out easier games. Some use it to look for even games as an experienced coach can do a far better job of evaluating if a game will be fair than any scheduler. Others favour it as they like to have a say in what teams they face as could easily match you against the same races over and over which can get dull.

There are even coaches who use [R] to find harder games than they would get in . An excellent coach with a very TV efficient team will usually be facing an average coach with a reasonably TV efficient team. Whilst in [R] he can seek out other top coaches or give weaker coaches a bit of an advantage to make the game more interesting. Of course you never hear about this as all the fanbois love to paint everyone in [R] as a filthy picker.

I think it is a mistake to try and make a scheduled open division competitive as that is not what the majority of coaches want. Most of them just want to find a quick game that is roughly equal. FUMBBL did try to factor in win rate into the scheduler but this proved hugely unpopular. The best way to introduce competition is to have regular opt in tournaments, I also think FUMBBL’s ranking system is the best I’ve seen as it factors in the teams used, coach ability and TV.

[dode74]

Sorry, I wasn't putting FUMBBL down at all - it's an excellent system. I'm simply pointing out that the structure may be leading to the issues seen in B.

I think it is a mistake to try and make a scheduled open division competitive as that is not what the majority of coaches want.

I think you're right, but there are also those who do want it to be competitive. Like koadah said earlier, you can't please all the people all the time.

I also think FUMBBL’s ranking system is the best I’ve seen as it factors in the teams used, coach ability and TV.

We're looking at a way to do this for FOL, actually. We can work out team and coach Elo, and we obviously know TV. Is there a link to show how FUMBBL manages the three together to produce a ranking? Edit - found it: http://fumbbl.com/help:Ranking

[koadah]

Of course not everyone in [R] is a filthy picker.

Though the number of filthy pickers increases hugely in the week before a tournament.

In [R] you can avoid coaches that you don't like. Avoid teams/play styles you don't like. Avoid slow/fast coaches. etc.

What gets people's goats are some of the silly, winnable game offers and the haggling.
Also drawing someone in 'pre-tournament'/team building mode. They'll often have a fit if a key player dies. They'll often play as if the only objective is to return their MNGers or skill up a new tackler/DP/whatever.

That is something I've never had playing open games in [L] and of course no haggling in