Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

[TalonBay]

And if Slann need an early buff, I figure Chaos amd Nurgle do too.

I'm not saying they need a buff (it wouldn't hurt them but that's not my point), I'm trying to give the team a reason to use what is in theory their best positional. The likes of Chaos and Nurgle will take all their positionals once they can raise the cash because the TV cost is reasonable. The team may not be great early on but it's still sensibly priced, who's taking four Slann Blitzers currently?

[kerrygray8]

"...who's taking four Slann Blitzers currently?"

Me! Because I'm an idiot

My Slann got to the final of our previous league (lost 2-1) - I find my playing style really depends on a player's MA stat (maybe its because all my plays could be called 'desperate'!!), so - for me - having lots of MA 7 was important. I generally find that the difference between MA 6 and MA 7 is really key. And all my Linefrogs seem to suffer -1 MA injuries.....

And the Krox sucked. Got his first SPPs (a casualty) in the 14th game of the season - his main contribution was to eat re-rolls..........

[garion]

I personally think that SG roll should be seperate to KO and should be made immediately after being sent off. in other words, roll a 4+ and place them in Reserves straight away otherwise ejected for remainder of game. Stops the player sitting in the KO bin all game until roll is passed.

otherwise we appear to be getting close to the final resting place of the NTBB list. Hopefully the rules can change and make the challenging teams more fun and the easy teams that little bit harder

All seems pretty clunky to me. Still don't get why SW rolls aren't just brought back, rather than make Sneaky Git work the way it does and then gift it to all the goblin SW players?

SW roll were just better.

[plasmoid]

Hi all - especially Garion,

That doesn't make sense, because they haven't actually been KO'd they have just been sent off

.
You misunderstood. What I meant was, if a SW had been both KO'd and sent-off (say, a B&C that was knocked down, auto-KO'd, then sent off at the end of the drive) - it would have to recover from both to return to play.

Same as the CRP rules where a KO'd B&C which gets sent off also would require both a Bribe and a 4+ KO roll to return to play.

So it isn't as clunky as you percieved it to be.

As for why I didn't just switch to penalty rolls, I'd say 'several reasons':
1. Because that's now how things developed. And I don't want to roll back to try something else.
2. Because I don't have a problem with how secret weapons work - i.e. all the chainsaw stars, the blunderbuss, etc. I just had a problem with the gobbo roster.
3. Because SG also affects fouling in general, which I definately want. I know you say SG isn't any good, but that's not what I'm hearing from the leagues.
4. Because I only want to change the most important things. Given how conservative most BB coaches are, any change is likely to make the rules less appealing, so I'm sticking to (IMO) fairly few changes and not expanding the list.

...Which is not to say that Penalty Rolls couldn't work.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

So it isn't as clunky as you percieved it to be.

As for why I didn't just switch to penalty rolls, I'd say 'several reasons':
1. Because that's now how things developed. And I don't want to roll back to try something else.
2. Because I don't have a problem with how secret weapons work - i.e. all the chainsaw stars, the blunderbuss, etc. I just had a problem with the gobbo roster.
3. Because SG also affects fouling in general, which I definately want. I know you say SG isn't any good, but that's not what I'm hearing from the leagues.
4. Because I only want to change the most important things. Given how conservative most BB coaches are, any change is likely to make the rules less appealing, so I'm sticking to (IMO) fairly few changes and not expanding the list.

ah right I did missunderstand yes.

1. Yes things develop but you shouldn't make changes for the sake of change, SW roll worked perfectly and imo are far better than the change to sneaky git plus giving gobo SW players SG. It means all the SW have the same chance of coming back on. SW worked better because the roll reflected how powerful the weapon and how obvious it was. Just because it was removed after lrb4 doesn't mean it should be ignored.
3. Sneaky Git for fouling still isn't worth a double (30TV) imo. I would take it on stunty players now that have already gained DP which is still better than the CRP never take version, but I think thats it really. Obviously it is worth taking on SW players too but as I said SW rolls were better. Deathroller with Sneaky Git and 2 babes? Seems a little daft imo.
4.I wouldn't say changing sneaky git is one of the more important things. Its a pretty small detail and I would rather see its removal over a change that isnt really adding anything to the game and that can be achieved in a better already tried and tested way over many editions.

[fanglord13]

All seems pretty clunky to me. Still don't get why SW rolls aren't just brought back, rather than make Sneaky Git work the way it does and then gift it to all the goblin SW players?

SW roll were just better

You are a bit stuck in the past it seems and that is your opinion on the matter. Not a negative judgement, just a statement of fact. I don't agree with giving SG to the roster Goblin SW's. I think they should earn the right to not be sent off.

NTBB seems to be headed in the right direction. I just wish their were more like minded people in my area that wanted to give it a go

[garion]

All seems pretty clunky to me. Still don't get why SW rolls aren't just brought back, rather than make Sneaky Git work the way it does and then gift it to all the goblin SW players?

SW roll were just better

You are a bit stuck in the past it seems and that is your opinion on the matter. Not a negative judgement, just a statement of fact. I don't agree with giving SG to the roster Goblin SW's. I think they should earn the right to not be sent off.

NTBB seems to be headed in the right direction. I just wish their were more like minded people in my area that wanted to give it a go

It's not stuck in the past. Just why introduce something new that is meant to have the same effect, only it doesn't achieve that goal as well?

As I said SW rolls allowed different probability for different SWs this change does not, so it is along the same lines, just not as good. Should a deathroller have the same probability of being sent off as a chainsaw? The answer is obviously no. Also SW rolls were actually easier and less clunky than putting a player in the KO box then rolling to get a Ko back, and babes help get the sneaky git player back on to the pitch. It is really doesn't make sense and is more complex than the superior in every way SW rolls.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
to clarify:
1. I meant that's how NTBB developed. The objective was never to improve secret weapons in general. It was to give a (second) general buff to fouling. Using that change as the buff to the gobbos was just icing/coincidental.

2. And as stated. I like how the weapon stars work. And they were priced accordingly.

3. I know there are SG foulers in the leagues. Some on doubles. And I have no problem with the potential emergence of an SG Roller anywhere. Rollers don't seem hugely popular.

4. Changing SG was never the goal. It's the mean to an end: Better fouling. (There are other deadbeat skills, and I've left those well alone)

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

And I have no problem with the potential emergence of an SG Roller anywhere. Rollers don't seem hugely popular.

I don't either, but that's not what i said. I was saying should a deathroller have the same chances of getting sent off as another player, or the same chance of sneaking back on (however you look at it)? Clearly they shouldn't.

This is just another way SW rolls were better.

and of course people in PBEM will take it, that league is for testing the new changes specifically. I will be interested to see how effective it is on fumbbl in leagues and how often it will be taken, i suspect it will jsut be a SW only skill on the whole.

We have already got 5 seasons worth of data for the NTTB 1 changes with each team being represented once. So it wont take long to get a similar amount of info for the Sneaky Git change.

[dode74]

I was saying should a deathroller have the same chances of getting sent off as another player, or the same chance of sneaking back on (however you look at it)? Clearly they shouldn't.

Depends on how you look at it. I don't think a deathroller (or a running chainsaw, or a goblin with a flail who can barely control his movement) will be sneaking many places at all, but they can certainly force their way to places - I know I wouldn't want to be stopping any of them! Foulers, on the other hand, can certainly sneak on.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
I'm sorry I just don't miss the SW rolls. And as I said, fixing SWs isn't what it was about for me.
And now that the dagger is no longer a secret weapon, I think the rest are all fairly visible and noisy. If they go on, they get spotted and sent off. And as Dode said, there are many ways to get back on. I'm sure that answer won't satisfy, but since I don't have a problem in the first place I suppose it doesn't bother me at all.

We have already got 5 seasons worth of data for the NTTB 1 changes with each team being represented once. So it wont take long to get a similar amount of info for the Sneaky Git change.

I greatly look forward to it. All feedback is welcome.
But you can't properly test it if you're also going with SW-rolls...?

and of course people in PBEM will take it

They won't if it's useless. They didn't take the "Guard for fouls" version we tried first.
But actually I was talking about another league, where I have no personal relationship with any of the coaches, and where a few were initially against trying NTBB.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

But you can't properly test it if you're also going with SW-rolls...?

No you missunderstand. there are two leageus running side by side. both currently using NTTB1, one of them will use the new sneaky git, the other will use SW rolls. Niether will use your updated PO nerf because we have found that the original nerf was enough to stop it being so OP. The new nerf to claw and PO is just to far.

fixing SWs isn't what it was about for me.

Then why not just allow Sneaky Git to work as you suggest for fouls? Because at the moment its main use is just a version of SW rolls, except its a skill and doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective, especially with regards to how babes help.

[dode74]

I think babes helping makes sense from a fluff perspective. The babes will help distract the ref while our SW sneaks (or barges) his way onto the pitch, while a sneaky git is simply better at cheating and therefore getting himself back on the pitch despite being sent off.

[harroguk]

I think babes helping makes sense from a fluff perspective. The babes will help distract the ref while our SW sneaks (or barges) his way onto the pitch, while a sneaky git is simply better at cheating and therefore getting himself back on the pitch despite being sent off.

This is one of the only parts I dont like about the NTBB, I agree it makes sense fluff wise however we now have an undead player in our league who has manipulated his TV so he constantly has 2 babes at a match meaning his Sneaky Git, Dirty Player ghoul is fouling with impunity every turn of the game. The rule designed to benefit the stunties/ag teams falls apart a little bit when the Bash are playing it too.

Personally I think the 4+ SG Roll should not be affected by babes.

[garion]

exactly, now imagine a dwarf roster that does the same with the deathroller. meaning the deathroller will pretty much always be on the pitch because the babes apparently distract the ref while it trundles on, on top of that it can foul with impunity the final turn or second to last turn (if you are about to score) of the drive anyway because you knows it will come back.

Also if you are looking for a buff for goblins, obviously removal of loner is a no brainer and how it should always have been imo seeing as there are two of them. But you could always just give the chainsaw Dodge as a starter skill. It seems daft that he doesnt have it.

sorry about this Martin, I am just trying to help. While I don't agree with the principle of narrowing the tiers i do think it is interesting, and i just think you can achieve some of things you are trying to achieve in easier ways and this sneaky git rule just seems very wrong, open to exploitation and not in the nature of how you intend the skill to be used.