Fouling for SPPs

[wesleytj]

Fair enough. I've mentioned before that that whole "personal risk" thing is silly and without logical backing of even the most elementary sort. But if you want to cater to them that's your business.

Like Chet said, that's what 'retaliation' is all about.

Technically, the US launching all of our nukes at Iraq tomorrow is without a serious physical risk to the US itself, as an action in and of itself. The reason we don't do it is the international retaliation that we'd get immediately by doing so...for starters.

Sorry I have to make (almost) every rw example a PolySci one.

[Pink Horror]

A chance for physical risk wouldn't exist if you can only be badly hurt. That's what serious injuries and deaths are for.

I don't want physical risk either. My suggestion was that a foul involving movement should take up your blitz action. This suggestion was meant to prevent something that might also be prevented with physical risk, which is how I guess the discussion came to involve that.

Now I see that linking fouls to blitzes and blocks could also have a nice side effect of allowing more than one foul per turn through block actions. I wouldn't mind that at all because I hate it when players are left prone for fear of blocking.



Pink Horror

[Pink Horror]

I don't buy the whole retaliation thing. The worst fouls come when your opponent is in no position to retaliate. I'd like to any rule change related to fouling come with a way to prevent those fouls.

Retaliation works with nukes because its very difficult to stop someone else from having the capability to cause serious damage through nulcear warfare. There's no such difficulty or potential harm in Blood Bowl.



Pink Horror

[wesleytj]

Wow!! Could it be?!

I think I just saw an idea that would possibly bring MORE fouling into the game!!

And yet at the same time it would be reasonable and make sense.

The only problem I see from it is that teams like my old online undead team would be WAY more scary than they are now.

http://mama.indstate.edu/users/python/b ... reich.html

Have a look I think you'll see what I mean VERY quickly.

Some teams have a lot of players with nothing better to do than foul, while others don't.

BTW I think this is my 100th post. Yay for me!

[Bevan]

This thread started with a discussion on whether fouling should score SPPs.

The situation that causes most annoyance is late in the game (last 1 or 2 turns) when the match has been decided and a player is 2 SPPs short of an upgrade. Instead of trying to score a TD or completion they used to take the easy way of looking for someone to foul.

This player is probably not a dirty player and may have done nothing all game so a premptive strike on Dirty Players isn't relevant and there probably won't be time for retaliation. And the best thing that can happen to the fouler is that he gets sent off and is safe for the last few turns of the game. How will retaliation help?

I'm quite happy with the current rules that don't give SPPs for fouling. Any change that makes skill upgrades easier by fouling than blocking must have a downside other than just being sent safely off the field.

[wesleytj]

The situation that causes most annoyance is late in the game (last 1 or 2 turns) when the match has been decided and a player is 2 SPPs short of an upgrade. Instead of trying to score a TD or completion they used to take the easy way of looking for someone to foul.

Heck I used to try to do all that for SPPs. If I had one turn left I'd try for a comp and a cas because a score was out of reach. Big deal, it's just part of the game.

This player is probably not a dirty player and may have done nothing all game so a premptive strike on Dirty Players isn't relevant and there probably won't be time for retaliation. And the best thing that can happen to the fouler is that he gets sent off and is safe for the last few turns of the game. How will retaliation help?

You're right. It's impossible to retaliate against a player who fouls one time at the end of the game for spp. It's also very unlikely to hurt you. Most of the people around here only have a problem with fouling when it's consistent and when people do it with dirty players every turn. And if a given coach had a regular habit of fouling at the very end all the time people would quickly learn that and then the retaliation becomes a factor yet again.

To me one foul at the end of a game is hardly something to get up in arms about, especially because as you said it's usually not with a DP anyway and so the odds of it actually killing someone are negligible.

I'm quite happy with the current rules that don't give SPPs for fouling. Any change that makes skill upgrades easier by fouling than blocking must have a downside other than just being sent safely off the field.

You say "safely off the field"...that's an interesting way to look at being ejected. It leaves the other team shorthanded for the rest of the match. Now given if it's the end of the game no big deal, but the end of the HALF it might matter. And maybe that guy is a useful part of the other team... ejection IS a BAD thing, I promise.

[dakkakhan]

Disclaimer: I've been trying to follow along etc. but I am not willing to read them all to find out if someone has written this yet...

What if when fouling you place the fouler prone similar to the way Piling-on is currently? I'd think harder before fouling, but I'd probably still do it. Some people would foul less though.



Also, I need a clarification:

Acerak, if Piling-on is an AV reroll, would the POn player still be placed prone?

[voyagers_uk]

I think I have said that I agreed with Fouling for Spp's though I have to clarify only if there are no Inj modifiers. So it is a goood chance of being sent off for a casualty.

Blood is part of the title and you should not be able to say ok if I hit you whilst you are standing and break your face that is 2spp's to me but if I step on it and break it when you are on the floor it isn't.

My league also already gave spp's for casualties pushed into touch, we fluffed it by saying that there is a ditch with spikes in it next to the pitch and the fans swarm down into it of a player goes in to give him a kicking if he isn't already injured.

Casualty should equal Spp's whatever the cause (except of course stupidly falling over and dying all on your own)

I actually agree with part of PH's message, Fouls with movement should take the teams blitz action. I like it, I do. We don't do this locally but it is something to consider and would make fouling for positional advantage a tactic rather than a desparate attempt to get 2Spp's

I am hesitant to comment on the "he can foul or Block, his choice" thing for every player as that would I think lead to some nasty tactical choices. If I had the ball I would rather Block and have one less standing opponent to chase after my ball carrier, If I was on the kicking team I would probably foul if it was positional and to my advantage. Not sure what it would add to the game though, especially if Inj mods are removed.

[Bob-the-Fish]

What if when fouling you place the fouler prone similar to the way Piling-on is currently?

That's a great suggestion. A lot of the people's arguments against SPPs for fouling claim that there is no risk to the fouler other than being sent off. If the fouler is placed prone after someone just seriously injured my star blitzer with a dirty foul and is now just laying there asking for retaliation, I'm going to take it, and I'm sure most other coaches would too. Plus, I'd definately think twice before laying down a AV7 Hobgobbo who just really ticked off the opposing team.

[manusate]

If one of my players is able to stick his iron reinforced boot in an opponent´s spleen while he is prone and vulnerable, he will surely gain some experience, and you can bet the crowd will adore him.
Maybe the ref was looking to the cheerleaders side and didn´t spot him, and maybe he saw the whole thing, and sent him off. Whatever happened, this guy deserves those SPPs.
(Same thing if he pushes the opponent off the pitch, and the poor fool gets a beating, by the way)
If you want to increase the penalties or the chances of being set off, I think it´s ok. It´s fair. But please forget those "physical risk" thingies.

I would also like to make some rules proposal (old house rules):

- Foulers are sent off on doubles on the armor AND injury rolls. (odds like being sent off on 5+ roll under current rules)

- If the ref is keeping his eye on fouler´s team, the fouler will be automatically sent off if the foul was so balatant that caused an injury or a kill. (in other words, is the fouler scores a CASualty)

- Dirty player doesn´t add any numbers to the rolls, but allows the player to use team rerolls on his fouls. They can also roll doubles on injuries without penalty. (like in good old 3rd ed, but without the bonuses)

Think this is fair enough, and keeps the whole thing kinda simple and clean.


Manu

[Mestari]

I would also like to make some rules proposal (old house rules):

- Foulers are sent off on doubles on the armor AND injury rolls. (odds like being sent off on 5+ roll under current rules)

- If the ref is keeping his eye on fouler´s team, the fouler will be automatically sent off if the foul was so balatant that caused an injury or a kill. (in other words, is the fouler scores a CASualty)

- Dirty player doesn´t add any numbers to the rolls, but allows the player to use team rerolls on his fouls. They can also roll doubles on injuries without penalty. (like in good old 3rd ed, but without the bonuses)

Otherwise I wouldn't mind these, but DP should not make it less likely that the player is ejected. On the contrary, it should make it more likely, in addition to giving some bonuses to the fouls.

[manusate]

I like myself the concept of Dirty Player decreasing the odds of getting caught, rather than increasing the chances of hurting another player.

It´s like in real life football ("soccer" for the yankees): everybody knows how to kick someone hard in the knee, it´s pretty simple to injure an opponent. The state of the art dirty players like Hierro (Real Madrid) almost never get sent off. That makes the real difference. They just play plain dirty but somehow manage to stay on the field.


Manu