BB2 Full listof changes to crp

[Jimmy Fantastic]

You bring up a good point though. Galak didn't like petty cash because some people can be confused and think that if they are 40k underdog they can transfer 10k and get a babe. Jervis didn't like bank because two pots of money, one of which counts to tv, can be confusing to some people.
You manage to hit both potential ways of confusing people who don't fully understand the rules.

[plasmoid]

Hi Jimmy,
thanks for your "reply".
I wonder though if you could direct me a little more precisely to your example of legal 'topping off'?
I'm also curious to know where it is you think there are 2 treasuries in my Bank/Petty Cash hybrid.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

Yeah this bank rule stuff isn't confusing

To interject, correct me if I am wrong but I think plasmoids rule for bank is the same as the original.

Basically anything over 150k is already part of your tv , so in the inducement phase can be used to buy stuff, is it not this simple?

Also another very reliable person who actually used bank rule posted this on fumbbl which echoes what I said exactly. Worth paying attention to and actually considering!!

I played PBeM over the NTBB site for a short while, and the single thing that I couldn't stand was the bank rule. I didn't agree with everything, but the bank rule (assuming it is similar, I haven't looked at BB2's version) just kills the long-term play of any team but the best few (or those that have very cheap players). How many games does it take before your team is well and truly shattered by a game where they lose 4 positionals? It doesn't really matter, that's how many games your team has before you have to ditch it!

I don't think petty cash is perfect, but the bank rule is a step backwards. At least, that's the opinion of this guy, who likes to play the lesser races. You know, the teams that are plenty challenging enough without having to endure the bank rule.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

It's not the same, it mixes the worst elements of both ideas.
I understand all of the rules. When I play the cyanide game on tuesday I can explain in detail with examples the BBRC bank rule, Plasmoid's bank rule & the actual BB2 bank rule. Then we can talk about what they were trying for and where they have gone wrong. I believe they were going for Plasmoid's rule.

[GalakStarscraper]

I understand the rules perfectly well thank you.

Jimmy's team = 1370 team, 180 treasury, total value 1400

Plasmoid's team = 1480 team, 0 treasury.

I get 80k inducement money and then may top it up with the 30k in my treasury which was already counted.

Jimmy is pointing at the confusion point of merging Petty Cash with the Bank.

With the Bank rules as originally done ... you could top off inducement money with your Treasury (since it was part of your TV). Since you could not move money from the Bank to Treasury in the pre-game ... if you didn't have Treasury as part already of your TV than topping off was not possible. The Bank rules clearly split the difference between saved cash and spendable cash.

By combing the two ... what you've created is that in ONE pile of cash you have cash that if you used it to top off is part of your TV and part that is not part of your TV ... which yeah ... that to me is much more confusing than either the original Bank rule OR the current Petty Cash rule.

So in Jimmy's example he can spend 30k to top of inducements but if he spent 40k to top off he would basically just be wasting 10k because that should then become part of a newly calculated TV. Ugh ... definitely do not consider that clearer than either the original Bank which clearly separated the two or the current Petty Cash rule.

And Jimmy ... yes Petty Cash has "worked" ... it is definitely not a rules failure. I still believe from the leagues that have continued to report results from using the original Bank rules that it was not as good of a rule as the Bank. I don't think its a bad rule ... it works somewhat ... it just really does not do was the target.

And I'll repeat ... I don't think any type of Bank rule has any place in a rule set that has Aging rules. If Aging was a definite ... NO changes to the Petty Cash rules should have been put in place.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Well you know what Galak, as much as I dislike it, I think the bbrc bank rule as a house rule for some leagues could be better than petty cash!
I think it's cool that you have spread it as an option and I wouldn't object to it being optional for leagues on fumbbl.

This is the way I look at Bloodbowl though. There is the scheduled/otherwise league environment and there is the online tv based mm environment.

In the league environment there is the big problem of how to limit the growth of teams and stop them being dominant forever. The best coaches make the best teams, they win more, they make more money, they suffer less attrition and generally open up a gap over the worse ones. Trying to peg them back and stop them running away with it is a fine goal. In that kind of envrionment being able to stay at say 3,000 TV forever would be pretty horrendous for a multitude of reasons.

However that doesn't really apply to online tv based mm as even if you took away the bank rule, ageing, spiralling expenses, and if you want to go really extreme to prove a point - perm injuries, it wouldn't matter anywhere near as much. A team could stay at 3,000 TV forever and still be matched vs other 3,000 TV teams.

So this is my main issue with the bank rule (and a lot of other rules).
Applying rules designed to inhibit the growth of runaways just does not matter as much(if at all) in online tv based mm.
In terms of TT leagues etc you can use it if you want as you can house rule anything (and online leagues should have hella options).
If there was ever a LRB7 I would like the campaign rules tailored to the online tv based mm format with plenty of suggestions and options for leagues and TT style tournaments.

[Darkson]

If there was ever a LRB7 I would like the campaign rules tailored for leagues with plenty of suggestions and options for the online tv based mm format and TT style tournaments.

Fixed for you.

Other than that, +1.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I don't know how you can disagree with that and then +1 the rest... but thanks
Now that I think about it the LRB7 could have Online TV based MM rules section and a default League section.
I thought it would be cleaner to start from one base set of rules seeing as Leagues can add or remove anything they want but yeah a default league section could be good.

[dode74]

I thought it would be cleaner to start from one base set of rules seeing as Leagues can add or remove anything they want but yeah a default league section could be good.

Maybe that's just coming from FUMBBL where L is more likely to be modified than B or R.

[plasmoid]

Hi Jimmy,
4 posts up I think you make a very sensible point regarding the differnce between TT Leagues and open/online. Well put.

I think it is worth noting, that when PBBL/CRP was developed, the intent was to create "perpetual" blood bowl, and part of that was to have TV wax and wane around a certain point indefinately. I don't remember the exact mark any more, but it was the same place as the original hard Cash cap (before SE) - 200TV... 220TV...?

It was felt that above that point the balance between teams begins to break down. [I edited i 'teams' which I forgot]

...That said, if any League think that the balance is fine, or that extreme high TV play is awesome, then more power to them!
In that case I'd totally disregard the bank.

Cheers
Martin

[koadah]

Simple. Just call SE, Bank, aging etc optional.

[plasmoid]

Hi again Jimmy (and Galak),
I'll look at your example, and either you don't have it right or I misunderstand what you mean by topping off.
Galak - I hope you're reading along too, as I think you misunderstood my rewrite/hybrid. I think it does what the Bank rule does, just using the Petty Cash framework.

Jimmys example:

Jimmy's team = 1370 team, 180 treasury, total value 1400
Plasmoid's team = 1480 team, 0 treasury.
I get 80k inducement money and then may top it up with the 30k in my treasury which was already counted.

In your example, this is what happens - according to the straight Petty Cash rules:
a) Jimmy decides how much Cash to turn into Petty Cash. This can be any sum between 0K and the full 180K.
The only change in the PlasBank rule: The sum must be between 30K and the full 180K.

b) Whatever Jimmy decides, this is added to his TV, and is available for inducements. Let's assume from your example that you added 30K to petty Cash.

c) Then TV is compared and inducement Cash are calculated. Jimmy is at 1400 TV - and gets 80K inducement Cash. Total available 110K (30K of these being his own Money).

d) Jimmy can choose to not actually spend some of the Cash - inflating his TV for no gain.

Just to elaborate:
c2) Had Jimmy added more, say 100K, his TV would increase, his inducements decrease, meaning he still ended up with 110K.
c3) Had Jimmy had an empty treasury, the TV difference between the actual teams would be the same 110K.
c4) Only if Jimmy burns more than 110K will he get more "inducements" - fully paid from his own pocket - as he is now effectively the overdog.

Compared to 'Galaks' Bank rule:
a) During the Pre-Match sequence of the previous game, Jimmy puts (presumably) 150K in the Bank, leaving 30K in the treasury.
b) Jimmy calculates his TV to 1370K (Team) + 30K (Treasury) = 1400K
c) Jimmy gets matched with Plasmoids team at 1480K.
d) Jimmy gets 80K inducement Money and 30K real Money = 110K for inducements (30K of these being his own Money).

Had Jimmy guessed who he'd be up against, he could have put more Cash in treasury, and just like with the PlasBank rule, the tipping point is 110K. If puts up 120K or more, he is effectively the overdog. If not, he gets 110K of inducements - with a varying ammount of those being his own Money.

In all instances, the Cash burned and the total ammount induced is the same.
Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

PS - so where is the difference.
I think
a) that 'Galaks Bank' as posted in this thread anyway, is a lot of text.
b) The PlasBank can be written in one sentence to anyone who is used to the Petty Cash rule.
I can only assume that Cyanide went with mine because it in rules terms is much closer to the current CRP, and the community seems very resistant to change. Particularly change introduced by Cyanide.

So - what is the other difference?:
Petty Cash gives the coach more flexibility. You don't have to decide your ammount in the post-game sequence of the previous game - where you in the vast majority of cases just bank everything that you can, and sit on your Cash.
With Petty Cash you can choose your ammount when you know the opposing team and the Team Values involved. This makes it more likely that can make a sensible inducement - meaning that you are more likely to actually use the excess Cash rather than just dump the excess Cash after games.
I think Garion will like that part. A Little

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,

To interject, correct me if I am wrong but I think plasmoids rule for bank is the same as the original.
Basically anything over 150k is already part of your tv , so in the inducement phase can be used to buy stuff, is it not this simple?

Thank you. That's certainly what I was trying for. Which is why I still consider it a rewrite.

As for your quote - can you link?
I don't like to talk about people behind their back, so I'd like to reply on FUMBBL as well.

However, I will say this:
Maybe he is right. In a rough and online/long-term environment like the Box...

*But - as he said, he played very few games, so he never encountered the situation he thinks will arise.
*I guess he played when the Bank was 100K. 150K leaves more room. Plus you have the winnings from the game.
*In both the full NTBB and Plasmoids CRP+, (C)POMB has been nerfed, meaning it is a heck of a lot less likely that you lose 4 positionals in one game.

- it will be interesting to see what happens though, now that Cyanide has implemented it in an environment with an unnerfed CPOMB. I guess that the good news is that with CPOMB-galore, nobody well ever hit the Bank cap anyway

Cheers
Martin

[GalakStarscraper]

But why even suggest this if Aging was being added? Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Also when you wrote PlasBank transfer 30k to 180k to Petty Cash. That seems extra to the rules process ... you said it is less ... but I don't see it as less if you actually tried to write the rules up for official use.

The discussion of Petty Cash completely messes up the water unless you are saying cash above 150k doesn't add to TV unless I do a transfer? Just very confused. If that is not the case ... than get rid of talking about Petty Cash altogether. Just say the first 150k does not count toward your team value the rest of your treasury does. But that is not what you did if I am reading you correctly which just doesn't make sense to me ... its not easier to understand.

The only reason you think my original type of the Bank was longer was because I retyped all the rules it related to rather than describing it like you tried.

Try to actually quote the changed section of the CRP that you are changing and what you changed them to so that it is more clear what you told Cyanide to do. As of right now I have no idea what you told them.