LRB favors AG teams (Rant)

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:34 am

Joshua Dyal wrote:
wesleytj wrote:YAY!! Thank god for small favors. I think that's what most coaches want to see...minor tweaks to the game without throwing in a bunch of garbage.
Yeah, well, isn't that what the experimental rules are for? Instead, all we get are relatively poorly concieved new teams like Khemri and Vampires.

*sigh* Please don't mistake the stuff that comes out in BBMag for official BBRC rules. The fact of the matter is that a lot of that is written without wide review or discussion on the part of the BBRC.

We do try to save major changes for every other Rules Review. This past one was pretty tame, so we may be a little more aggressive with the upcoming one.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:44 am

Milo, I think the reason most of us think of the new broken teams as official is because the minis are made already and anytime somebody says they suck we get ridiculed.

When we try to fix them we get ridiculed. When somebody shows JJ hard facts that his team is whacko he plugs his ears and pushes on. Basically we get goofy teams to play test and we say, "this is broken" we get "Try it, you'll like it."

Now I'm not insulting you or making a personal attack. I'm just pointing out that maybe JJ and the BBRC don't listen as well as they think they do.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:17 am

Pariah wrote:Milo, I think the reason most of us think of the new broken teams as official is because the minis are made already and anytime somebody says they suck we get ridiculed.

When we try to fix them we get ridiculed. When somebody shows JJ hard facts that his team is whacko he plugs his ears and pushes on. Basically we get goofy teams to play test and we say, "this is broken" we get "Try it, you'll like it."

Now I'm not insulting you or making a personal attack. I'm just pointing out that maybe JJ and the BBRC don't listen as well as they think they do.

I will concede that the minis grant a certain level of "officiality" to the new teams when they come out, and I'm not certain that the first appearance of team rules (or any new experimental rules) should be in a product consumers must pay for.

Now, I have seen changes to teams based on feedback from other coaches. The Khemri team we're playtesting is currently all AG2, which is, if I remember correctly, a suggestion first made here. I'm pretty certain that the Ogre team that eventually becomes official will look more like the one we hashed out here than the one that Jervis has suggested.

We fix some stuff on our own, too. After seeing the Rotters as printed, the BBRC went back to the drawing board and tweaked them some to make them less like an improved version of a Chaos team.

I don't think it's fair to say that all we say is "try it, you'll like it." We do frequently say "please try it before you make a decision", but that's not quote the same thing.

Milo

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:47 am

Haven't seen any new Khemri...you may have but WE haven't. How are we supposed to play test them if they are exclusive to those in the know?

Last I heard about the ogres was JJ said, "Try mine first." When any fool can see his are broken. When did that change?

The Rotters I saw in the MBBL were the changed version and they are still over the top...but I'm sure in the MBBL they'll be just fine.

At any rate you post proves my point. You "listened" by getting defensive and trying to prove me wrong.
Fine you listen so well and nobody thinks that the broken teams will ve official. I was oh so wrong again.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:56 am

Pariah wrote:Haven't seen any new Khemri...you may have but WE haven't. How are we supposed to play test them if they are exclusive to those in the know?

That's a good point. I'll talk to the rest of the group and see if I can get approval to post it somewhere.

Last I heard about the ogres was JJ said, "Try mine first." When any fool can see his are broken. When did that change?

I can't quote you an exact day, but it was, IIRC, a couple of weeks ago, and Tom Anders posted about it on his experimental ogre team testing threads. I didn't see a reason to duplicate his post, since most people believe him if he says he got word from a BBRC member.

At any rate you post proves my point. You "listened" by getting defensive and trying to prove me wrong.
Fine you listen so well and nobody thinks that the broken teams will ve official. I was oh so wrong again.

Fair enough. I did get defensive. I apologize for that.

For what it's worth, I was agreeing with you about why people grant them "official" status when they're intended to still be experimental -- publication in the Mag and available minis does lend them more credibility. I don't think that's the ideal way to go about making first drafts available, and I think a more sensible method of doing so would have avoided a lot of arguments and harsh feedback about the process.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 6:09 am

Well we agree on something finally! (que fanfare)

I don't think that making the minis before the rules is 100% evil, I just wish that they took as much care making the rules as the sculpters do in making the minis! I think a lot of us are happy to play test some rules and new teams but these last few have felt like they were written up on a napkin at a martini lunch! As much fun as new stuff is we are still competitors. We don't like losing to the worst coach in the league because he shows up with Nurgle Beast from hell to "play test" on my Dwarf dynasty.

I have no advice on how you tell JJ that he's off his nut but I can sympathize with how difficult it is and I have been too rough on you lately.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 6:59 am

Milo, you might know this, or there aain you might not, but do JJ and/or AndyH still play BB in competative leagues? If not, might be an idea to push for them to do so.

Please don't have a go, I'm not critising the pair of them, I'm genuinely please BB is getting the support it deserves, I just feel the as the pair of them are the ones who have the biggest say in what is published in the mags (hey, they're Fanatic, it's their job),prehaps they should be playing more than he occsional one-off.

If you now come back and tell me there's a thriving studio league they both participate in I apologise in advance

.

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:30 pm

There's pretty much always been a thriving studio league -- I know for sure GWUS has one, and as near as I've heard, GWUK always has too.

The question becomes how good is that as a data point -- clearly it didn't catch some of the potential obscenity of 3rd edition fouling, for example.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:55 pm

Joshua Dyal wrote:There's pretty much always been a thriving studio league -- I know for sure GWUS has one, and as near as I've heard, GWUK always has too.

Actually, there isn't -- AT THE MOMENT -- but they are gearing up for a big one. I'm not sure on the official start date, but apparently interest is high in the wake of the Blood Bowl. I hope that the results will make for some altered viewpoints on certain issues, but I have my doubts about a few of the playtest rules they'll be using.

Milo

Post by **Dave** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 6:32 pm

that's really good I guess

Let's try to join in

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:12 am

Maybe they should let some of the "competative" players from the BB play as well, might change their view on a few things

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:20 am

Darkson wrote:Maybe they should let some of the "competative" players from the BB play as well, might change their view on a few things

A good idea. The friendly leagues where everyone has the same view of how the game should be played effectively avoids testing whether the rules can be bent or broken. You need the power gamers for that purpose :-]

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:44 pm

The friendly leagues where everyone has the same view of how the game should be played effectively...

Such a thing exists? One of the players in my league has a standing $10 reward for every player on my Orc team gimped or killed.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 5:55 am

Skummy wrote:Such a thing exists?

Hard to believe, eh? The smaller the league, the closer the friends in there, the more likely it is that no one tries to exploit the rules. Everyone simply plays along the same lines tactically. For example: that no-one tries to foul excessively. In such a league, fouling is never a problem and they wouldn't see the problems it had in 3rd edition, for example. But introduce one power-gamer who exploits the rules and they will see.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 11:10 pm

I agree with Mestari here. Our league of 8 gamers were all friends of many different wargames before we tried BB. Ours was a "proper" league structure and the season was 12 games long. In that time we only had 2 DP's, and most people would only foul 2-3 times per game.

Now, if we were to run the league again, with the extra experience I have from the BB, PBeM, etc., I would probably take another, and would definetly foul more often, and the others would follow suit when they saw how effective it can be.

Would this lose some of the friendly atmosphere? Can't say, but I'd hope not.