Are any teams balanced?

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:54 pm

Zombie, you're on crack. I played orcs IN the MMBBL, and in my table top league twice. I've also played them in various other one night tourneys around here. I am certainly no newbie to the game. Been playing snce 2nd edition. I win with Orcs about as much as I win with Chaos or Norse. Lose with Orcs about as much as I lose with Chaos or Norse. I've had goblins and I've had no goblins. I've had ogres and I've had trolls. I've had pump wagons and I've had doom divers.
They are perfectly fine. Just because you have trouble beating them doesn't mean they are are overpowered. You are biased in your opinion.
The only change I would even offer for them (if I was absolutely forced to) would be to leave them with trolls as their only big guy. It fits the fluff better that's it.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:07 pm

It's been my experience that Orc teams look a lot better than they play, mostly because of poor ball handling skills. I plan on getting my Blizers Sure Hands/Catch as their second skills with my current team, just to experiment with a different kind of Orcball. Foul Apperance isn't a factor in our league, so I might get away with it.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:02 pm

ianwilliams wrote:
Zombie wrote:star players should not be allowed to be freebooted in playoffs unless you've freebooted them at least twice during the regular season.
I don't see why you have to discourage them from the playoffs. Isn't the point that rather than having them for normal games they are one off hires for special occassions. I don't see what your rule achieves. What is it meant to do?

Around here, every race that has a decent star player just gathers money all season and hires him once or twice in the playoffs. Hiring them just once or twice makes them cheap and defeats the purpose of making them freeboot only. It also means that the team you're facing in the playoffs isn't his normal team, but more like a star player with a bunch of other guys. It just plain sucks.

Making the team have to freeboot him twice in the regular season to have him available for the playoffs makes star players expensive like the freebooting rule was meant to do, and makes them less common as well.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:05 pm

Now you could of course argue that play-offs and finals etc aren't league games by definition....

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:07 pm

Pariah wrote:I've had goblins and I've had no goblins.

Have you ever had 4 goblins? That's what makes them too good.

Pariah wrote:Just because you have trouble beating them doesn't mean they are are overpowered.

I've never had any trouble playing against them. But they are the one team that when i play them, i'm almost impossible to beat. They are too well rounded, equally good at passing and at bashing. Surely that can't be right.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:10 pm

Skummy wrote:It's been my experience that Orc teams look a lot better than they play, mostly because of poor ball handling skills. I plan on getting my Blizers Sure Hands/Catch as their second skills with my current team, just to experiment with a different kind of Orcball. Foul Apperance isn't a factor in our league, so I might get away with it.

They're just as good at ball handling as humans. Surely you wouldn't call humans poor at ball handling? The only difference between an orc thrower and a human thrower is -1MA, and goblins make catchers that are just as threatening as human catchers, and you get 4 of them just like humans do. Starting with dodge and stunty, and adding catch, sure feet and/or side step, makes for something that's almost impossible to stop.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:24 pm

Zombie wrote:
Skummy wrote:It's been my experience that Orc teams look a lot better than they play, mostly because of poor ball handling skills. I plan on getting my Blizers Sure Hands/Catch as their second skills with my current team, just to experiment with a different kind of Orcball. Foul Apperance isn't a factor in our league, so I might get away with it.
They're just as good at ball handling as humans. Surely you wouldn't call humans poor at ball handling? The only difference between an orc thrower and a human thrower is -1MA, and goblins make catchers that are just as threatening as human catchers, and you get 4 of them just like humans do. Starting with dodge and stunty, and adding catch, sure feet and/or side step, makes for something that's almost impossible to stop.

Yeah, except that they're ma6, av7, and +1 to inj. sorry, gobs aren't as good as human catchers. sure stunty is great, but humans can get block for their first skill, gobs have to spend theirs on catch to be on the same page as human catchers....they need doubles for blk.

humans are a better passing/ballhandling team than orcs

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:31 pm

I think that the teams are pretty well balanced at the moment. Some teams may be better at playing others but this is usually balanced by them having a team they are weaker against as well.

On top of this the variety of tactics and skills that can be used usually ensures that no two teams play exactly the same.

In terms of measuring the teams and statistics I think there are a couple of things to watch out for:

1. The skill of the coaches may not be evenly balanced amongst different teams, for example humans are often recommended to newbies, so maybe humans underperform as they have more newbie coaches who then move on to other teams as they improve (I have no idea if this is true by the way, just an example)

2. Some teams are much easier to play (or play against) than others. The orcs for example are relatively flexible and strong and are arguably easier to play than maybe Lizardmen or Chaos (or other more specialist teams). This may influence the statistics and peoples opinions but does not mean that a team is more or less powerful, in the right hands any team can be devastating.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:03 am

I've already had this argument with you Zombie and you didn't back it up.
You can put 4 goblins on the pitch but your severely limiting your bashing options.

A good dwarf defense is all it would take. There's nothing that 4 goblins give the orcs that a sensible defense can't take away. So the people in your league have trouble beating you? Who are they? Just because you are good with ateam doesn't make them overpowered. I am very good with dwarfs and undead. They aren't over powered.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:01 am

wesleytj wrote:Yeah, except that they're ma6, av7, and +1 to inj. sorry, gobs aren't as good as human catchers. sure stunty is great, but humans can get block for their first skill, gobs have to spend theirs on catch to be on the same page as human catchers....they need doubles for blk.

Human catchers are AV7 also. MA6 is compensated by stunty which means that they don't have to go around, they can go through. +1 to injury is more than compensated by the fact that they only cost 40k, so if they do get injured, they're easily replaced. No access to general is the only thing that really hurts them.

wesleytj wrote:humans are a better passing/ballhandling team than orcs

Orcs have black orcs that humans don't, which makes them indirectly better at passing the ball because their blitzers aren't tied up on the line of scrimmage. Orcs are just as good at passing the ball (IMO, better) as humans.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:02 am

One thing human catchers have going over goblins is that they can get nerves of steel.

But then I stick to my undead and choas dwarfs for now, who needs throwing ;]

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:04 am

@ Pariah

Against dwarves, of course you leave the gobbos on the bench. But there are so many positional players on the orc team (15 total), that unlike humans, you don't have to replace them with mere linemen (or in this case lineorcs). The fact that orcs are so good at everything (passing, bashing, you name it) is what makes them too strong.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:08 am

Grumbledook wrote:But then I stick to my undead and choas dwarfs for now, who needs throwing ;]

I do! My chaos dwarves have a hobgoblin with pass, accurate and sure hands. He has 17 comps after 18 games.

It seems that whatever team i play, i always end up passing a lot. Must be all that elf blood in me, i've played elves too long. Puah!

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:37 am

Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Teams all have another team that beats them on a regular basis and a team they can beat regularly. No team is unbalanced in and of itself. Unbalance comes when a coach selects the right team for his league. If there's no Rock to hammer your Scissors, then your team will seem unbalanced.

"In a league full of Amazons, the Dwarven team is king." (tm)

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:30 am

neoliminal wrote:"In a league full of Amazons, the Dwarven team is king." (tm)

I'm waiting for the day I can play in a league full of halfling coaches with no brains or eyesight and finally win consistently with a dark elf team.

Martyn