Dauntless shouldn't be a trait

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:33 pm

I wouldn't be so bothered about the odd Halfling/Gobbo with it but Skinks with dauntless would be bad news. Lizard teams hit hard enough as it is.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:38 pm

Munkey wrote:I wouldn't be so bothered about the odd Halfling/Gobbo with it but Skinks with dauntless would be bad news. Lizard teams hit hard enough as it is.

I'd agree with that Skinks don't need it (they may like it but the team's got loads of strength anyway)

rwould · Post by **rwould** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:19 pm

The main argument seems to be against stunties getting it. How about any stunty gets -2 to the Dauntless roll due to their lack of true conviction that they can pull it off? Would it then be acceptable as a skill?

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:43 pm

That's still pretty good odds for a block on a 3 strength player. I'd rather just see something like Mighty Blow, where a player starting with 2 strength can never get the skill.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:08 pm

Good idea Skummy.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:01 pm

dauntless is fine. tbh i think if there's one trait that should be made a skill again, it's frenzy. either that or use the old description. it's too weak now.

one extra hit is not that cool.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:05 pm

Frenzy was way too good before, now it's just the perfect balance. Great for ST4 or ST5 players on a double, and still ok for other blitzer types.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:17 pm

i agree that it was marginally too good before, but now i think they over-corrected, making 2 harsh adjustments when only 1 was needed. 1 or the other is fine, I don't really care which.

I think tbh I'd rather leave it a trait and return it to it's old description. It would be a lot more interesting that way. Bigger possible returns, but bigger possible drawbacks. ie it would take a good coach to use it effectively and not get into trouble with it.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:16 am

Frenzy will never return to its former form, and i'm glad it won't. It would be so totally overpowered compared to the level of the other skills and traits now that no one in his right mind would even think about taking anything else on a double.

The way it is now, i still often take it on a double, with good results. Actually, it's my first choice on a double for any blitzer that doesn't already have it (except maybe amazon blitzers who benefit more from guard). To me, that says the trait is plenty powerful as is. Getting a second chance to take the ball from the other team is great, and the skill is also great for opening up holes in the opposition's line.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:26 am

bah i miss being able to push guys out of bounds on a regular basis. and yes, i know, that also means MY guys get that treatment too.

plus, like i said, it's nice to have a skill with possible negative side effects too, you have to strategize and execute properly, or old frenzy could get you into real trouble. that's what kept it from being broken imo.

also, you alluded to all the skills/traits being weaker now. that's part of my issue...I'm trying to fight that general trend. you don't have to make everything weaker to be balanced.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:30 am

wesleytj wrote:plus, like i said, it's nice to have a skill with possible negative side effects too, you have to strategize and execute properly, or old frenzy could get you into real trouble. that's what kept it from being broken imo.

Well, the current skill still has that negative, since you still have to follow up. So that should satisfy your thirst for negatives.

wesleytj wrote:also, you alluded to all the skills/traits being weaker now. that's part of my issue...I'm trying to fight that general trend. you don't have to make everything weaker to be balanced.

Not all of them were made weaker, only a few that really caused problem like diving tackle, stand firm and frenzy. You don't have to make everything weaker for balance, but you do have to tweak down anything that really stands out.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:41 am

Zombie wrote: Well, the current skill still has that negative, since you still have to follow up. So that should satisfy your thirst for negatives.

Yeah, well now it's negative without enough positive to justify a doubles roll.

wesleytj wrote:also, you alluded to all the skills/traits being weaker now. that's part of my issue...I'm trying to fight that general trend. you don't have to make everything weaker to be balanced.

Not all of them were made weaker, only a few that really caused problem like diving tackle, stand firm and frenzy. [/quote]

several others, too...dirtyplayer, mightyblow, claw, fangs, pro all come to mind. the only one i can think of that was made stronger was piling on, which i can't understand for the life of me.

the point is that instead of making something weaker to bring it into balance, you could make some competing skills/traits stronger...not every change has to be to weaken stuff...in fact that causes new problems of its own.

for one, skills that used to be 'average' now become more powerful by comparison even tho no change was made. do you weaken them too? at some point getting skills is a pointless gesture because they all suck.

another problem is that as you weaken player killing skills, you have to introduce artificial limits on team and player growth to maintain overall league balance. see other threads/posts/etc

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:51 am

wesleytj wrote:
Zombie wrote: Well, the current skill still has that negative, since you still have to follow up. So that should satisfy your thirst for negatives.
Yeah, well now it's negative without enough positive to justify a doubles roll.

Well, like i said, it's still my first choice on a double for almost any blitzer. The same can't be said about every trait (jump up anyone?)

As for the rest of your post, consider this. Let's say that the game consists of 1/3 of very powerful skills, 1/3 of medium ones, and 1/3 of weak ones. To balance a game, what you have to do is make sure that no skill is too powerful. It doesn't matter if one is too weak; people won't use it so you lose in diversity, but at least it won't break the game. It's the top 1/3 that is causing problem. So you have two choices here: either bring down the top 1/3, or bring up the bottom 2/3. The first option is the easiest and the one that should be used.

Also, if you want to keep high TR teams from dominating too much (which was one of the goal of the current edition), it makes sense to bring down some of the most powerful skills, which were the primary reason why those teams were dominating in the first place.

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 5:49 am

Skummy wrote:That's still pretty good odds for a block on a 3 strength player. I'd rather just see something like Mighty Blow, where a player starting with 2 strength can never get the skill.

Or maybe the opponents Strength counts as doubled for the dauntless roll if the dauntless player is stunty. (Could result ins some really tight rolls for Haflings blocking Ogres with dauntless)