LRB rosters balanced?

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:35 am

I think the hardest reason to realistically rank teams is due to the, easier teams coached by newer/worse coaches syndrom, that someone else mentioned. The only league i know of that really had any way of testing these things was the 1st season Rabbl (dont change a thing Dave

). U also get the opposite syndrom as well, the im-a-good-coach so im gonna coach halflings (remind any one of any tbb people?).

Dark Lord (retired) · Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:45 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Dark Lord wrote:Am I mistaken or is FUMBBL not really a LRB league? No handocap table, not all of the skills etc.
It has all the skill now DL ... and Ski is waiting for the handicap table to get readdressed in the 2003 Review before programming it in.

So the FUMBBL league is LRB - handicap table. That's close enough for me to bank on the statstitics as a data source for arguing about LRB balance.

But the REBBL is LRB + handicap table. I would think the the handicap table is pretty important in the issue of balance.
Also from what I have heard FUMBBL has alot people who won't accept challenges from people who foul, and there is alot of "Oops, I got disconnected and can't report my game where 3 players died."

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:50 am

i really don't think the handicap table would make a very large difference for one race more than another over the long run anyway, so for the puropses of this discussion it's pretty much an LRB league.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:54 am

Well, teams aren't scheduled in FUMBBL, so they tend to avoid certain matchups. I'll bet many Amazon teams go their whole team history without playing against Dwarf or Chaos Dwarf teams. That bothers me if you're trying to use the FUMBBL data to prove how even all the teams are.

SkiJunkie · Post by **SkiJunkie** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:15 am

Fumbbl just added support for round robin and some other type of tournies. So those might be more valuable to look at those internal leagues.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:20 am

Very cool. FUMBBL just keeps getting better and better. I'll have to start using my teams on it one of these days.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:23 am

Dark Lord wrote:But the REBBL is LRB + handicap table. I would think the the handicap table is pretty important in the issue of balance.
Also from what I have heard FUMBBL has alot people who won't accept challenges from people who foul, and there is alot of "Oops, I got disconnected and can't report my game where 3 players died."

That is true, and for the most part I agree with Dark Lord, for case specific issues (skills being overpowered, etc) Fumbbl can give a decent indication but can not support it with enough Statistics. Because of the points that DL made.

However, for this particular issue, and issues that require mass number crunching, fumbbl is a very good source, of statistical information. Fumbbl allows for broader issues to be searched for and proven. In fact, this issue (Overall Team Balance) is probably the one thing that Fumbbl can prove with certainty.

Skummy wrote:Well, teams aren't scheduled in FUMBBL, so they tend to avoid certain matchups. I'll bet many Amazon teams go their whole team history without playing against Dwarf or Chaos Dwarf teams. That bothers me if you're trying to use the FUMBBL data to prove how even all the teams are.

This is also true, but on Fumbbl you can find the brave few that had. There are 279 Amazon Teams on Fumbbl, that have played a total of 2591 matches. The number of matches between Amazon's and Dwarves is 99. A small percentage but a good number of matches. (at the particular moment that I looked, it is increasing hourly)

You can see the results of those matches here.

As you can see at equal TR they are even, and at TR differences they are close enough, to be considered equal, or close as you can expect, since Dwarves negate the Amazon's one advantage.

Asperon Thorn

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:27 am

What a neat tool. Check out the same stats for Chaos Dwarves vs Amazons; http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats ... =1&race2=3

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:15 am

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't accusing FUMBBL of being worthless. I was just asking questions.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:52 am

Dark Lord wrote:Don't get me wrong, I wasn't accusing FUMBBL of being worthless. I was just asking questions.

And its a very valid question. If we are going to use something like FUMBBL as the baseline ... we should all agree on whether the baseline is worth its salt.

When it first started it wasn't ... I think its definitely getting there. As soon as Ski gets in the handicap table based on the 2003 Review, I think it will become "the" place for asking the question of ... does it work?

Galak

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:11 am

I was just wondering why i hear so much about FUMBBL and MBBL and nearly nothing about REBBL

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:19 am

Dark Lord wrote:I was just wondering why i hear so much about FUMBBL and MBBL and nearly nothing about REBBL

Because FUMBBL and MBBL both has statistics pages that can be easily looked at to see how a given race is doing. Thus they normally get referenced for these types of discussions. I don't think Tim has a lifetime league stats page based on race played. If he does, then by all means he should be in the mix as well. Those 2 leagues are only mentioned because the data is precollected for review on the sites of the leagues.

Galak

gold_penguin · Post by **gold_penguin** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:38 am

I think the other important thing to think about is league composition. In FUMBBL you have an "ideal" situation, where there is a large mix of all types of teams.

Softer agility teams in a mostly bashing league can have trouble, because they end up with so many players injured, without having many games to recover.

Bashing teams in a mostly agility league can have trouble, because the agility teams are never really curbed by casualties (well not as much), and they will struggle to get uber players to match the wardancers etc.

In a balanced league, the agility teams get smacked enough to curb the uber players, but not so much that they are crippled, and the bashing teams have enough low AV teams to smack to get their SPP, and their are enough of them to keep the fast teams in check.

After having played in a number of leagues, I would say I have anecdotal evidence to back this up, but the more concrete evidence is in leagues like FUMBBL

Heiper · Post by **Heiper** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 6:59 am

Only thing to remeber when he gets the 2003 rules, is to start with new stats from the start again with those rules. Either an option to view ALL stats and only 2003 rules stats, or something like that.

If all stats are included, the data we get from FUMBBL won't be correct, as it will then take with it the old stats from diffrent rules. Just a reminder. (I've not really looked at FUMMBL stats that much, so I don't really know from how far back the current stats go, or if it already has the option I asked for)

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:02 am

sean newboy wrote

The only league i know of that really had any way of testing these things was the 1st season Rabbl (dont change a thing Dave ).

Well I'm glad that we played this "random" way for a season (teams were randomly assigned to each coach each round). I think it was fun, but it was a lot of work for me.... hence why the format was changed for season 2.

Anyway if anyone is interested, the web pages are still up and running:-

Main page with rules etc

http://www.dn-allen.supanet.com/RABBL/S ... RABBL.html

Race League Table (the page above has links to other stats / tables)

http://www.dn-allen.supanet.com/RABBL/S ... Table.html

Dave