A problem with the LRB

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:07 pm

There is a fundamental difference in opinion.

I do not believe that the game should have any mechanic to inflate team growth.

The handicap system (whether it is cards or the table) ought to only balance the game in progress so that both teams have a decent chance of victory - I think the current balance is too weak and it ought to make the odds closer to 50-50. It also ought to help insulate lower ranked teams from permanent injuries or death.

In addition to the instances where a coach joins a new league, what about the circumstances where there is one team with a much higher TR than everyone else (e.g. the have just won the Blood Bowl and their TR has gone up 50 points).

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:09 pm

Grum, I'm just telling you how it works for absolutely every single league I've been able to contact in all of Norway.

There are huge amounts of leagues were the player follow the rules the way they are, and not change anything. Most people don't change the rules of a game. it just happens to be fairly common in Bloodbowl, amongst more seasoned players.

THe guys who do, are the ones who've been playing for a long time, or regularly visit sites like this.

I am not referring to those of us who are seasoned in bloodbowl, but all the guys who aren't that seasoned, or who follow the rules regardless.

These people represent the vast majority, you have to realise.

And of course it's not a problem for online leagues, because there are so many teams to go around, you won't have to face that much stronger opponents.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:15 pm

ianwilliams wrote:There is a fundamental difference in opinion.

I do not believe that the game should have any mechanic to inflate team growth.

The handicap system (whether it is cards or the table) ought to only balance the game in progress so that both teams have a decent chance of victory - I think the current balance is too weak and it ought to make the odds closer to 50-50. It also ought to help insulate lower ranked teams from permanent injuries or death.

In addition to the instances where a coach joins a new league, what about the circumstances where there is one team with a much higher TR than everyone else (e.g. the have just won the Blood Bowl and their TR has gone up 50 points).

Heh, it certainly is a difference of opinion.

If the handicap table/cards is remade to make the odds for the underdog to win about 50/50, then you will absolutely have to sabotage the stronger players ability to score, and inflate the weaker players ability to do the same. You will have to grant cards that can heal or save the weaker teams players from injury. And thus directly affecting TD's and longlivety.

This very issue was the subject of alot of complaints earlier, with cards like poof ball, Woof Woof, pit trap, etc.

You will have a hard time keeping all sides happy.

And besides, most john doe, average players, want to be able to compete at the same level as the rest of the guys I expect. This is at least the notion from every player in my own league, and the other leagues I know of in norway, at least. And I find it hard to belive that this is a pequiliar to norway only.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:35 pm

there aren't any league structure rules regarding divisions like european football or having groups and then playoff like in the nfl

so the problem surely lies with the stucture they are using to run the league not wit the league progression rules that are in the rulebook

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:38 pm

Personally I think its stupid to always try for an even chance of victory. Much higher rated teams OUGHT to be the favourite - or there is little point in even bothering to develop a team...

The handicap should give the underdog a chance, sometimes, but not 50/50.

As for Bonus MVPs - it makes perfect sense. Why not? Rookie teams in an environment where everyone else is experienced would learn fast or die! Bonuses to the FF table based on TR difference wouldn't go amiss either.

If someone enters late in the league their rookie team may lose its first few games badly, but will get better (catch up) quicker. Whats wrong with that? Its kind of how it happens in "real life" anyway...

I'd prefer rookie teams to get better quicker than to have a handicap system which evens the odds totally... I think the cards were about right and the bonus MVPs, so we kept them

In our league, having kept special play cards and bonus MVPS, we are now basing the handicap on PERCENTAGE difference, which kinda stops teams rated over 200 from getting much anyway...

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:57 pm

Round here we tend to play mainly evenly matched teams so that this problem is reduced.

I'm with Ian on the no permanent improvements front as to my mind this just pushes all the teams artificially towards the top rated team.

It has the side effect that any further rookie teams that join later on are in the same situation as the original rookie teams whose growth has now been speeded up.

Because of the variety of leagues and the way they are run we would be better served with a section in the LRB giving ideas on how to run leagues and ways to even the odds if this is required.

I don't see this happening anywhen soon but perhaps there is scope for a BBMag article or just one posted on the net. (Note i'm not volunteering as I don't have the time or the experience as a commish)

Post by **Old Man Draco** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:04 pm

Personally I like the cards, because they are fun to play. But it DOES take balance out of the game. If a new team get's 5 cards and 3 of them can prevent a TD then that's just too much. Maybe the Elf teams can compensate but the slow teams surely can't! So keep the cards but make the TD preventers a lot less.

Roy, I hate it when my opponent can hold on to a DT card untill the end of the match. Always makes me think I'm gonna get robbed. That's tension for ye.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:15 pm

"Because of the variety of leagues and the way they are run we would be better served with a section in the LRB giving ideas on how to run leagues and ways to even the odds if this is required. "

This is a good idea

I'm also thinking about introducing LEAGUE random events - for the fun of it...

"Personally I like the cards, because they are fun to play. But it DOES take balance out of the game. If a new team get's 5 cards and 3 of them can prevent a TD then that's just too much. Maybe the Elf teams can compensate but the slow teams surely can't! So keep the cards but make the TD preventers a lot less."

True - but you'd be surprised how often the "TD preventers" don't do their job... People get paranoid and soon learn how to nullify the effects of almost any card (except burst ball

) And the tension is ACE!

IMHO, pure LRB should be kept (and developed) for TOURNAMENTS specifically. Leagues etc should have progression rules yes, but IDEAS and unofficial stuff for each league commissioner to pick and choose from (actually thats the way the LRB is going anyway)

I think the main reason the cards went were becasue GW didn't want to reprint them...

madhobbit · Post by **madhobbit** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:27 pm

What we did to give starting teams a little extra edge is let them start with 1,100,000 gp. This makes it easier to start of with a few extra positional players and thus giving them a little extra.

About a year ago somebody on Blood Bowl Central suggested a tiered handicap system. The handicaps were split up in groups. Group 1 with the low impact handicaps, group 5 with the big impact ones. When you get 1 roll you roll on group 1. With 2 rolls you get to roll 1 in group 1 and 1 in group 2.
The groups contained 7 handicaps and option 8 was to roll once more on a group 1 step higher.
With this system the handicaps are more balanced and in line with the difference in TRR. I liked it a lot, but unfortunately the majority of our coaches voted against it.

Greetings,

m@hobbit.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:33 pm

Madhobbit - You run your league as a democracy??

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:35 pm

noodle wrote:Madhobbit - You run your league as a democracy??

My league is a democracy as well.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:40 pm

fumbbl is a dictatorship, the way it should be

Khrage · Post by **Khrage** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:49 pm

Our league is a democracy (as long as we agree with the comish)

We ended up tweaking the handicap table to make it more balanced, not just for the low TR team, but the high TR team as well. For example, we slightly nerfed Virus (on a 5+ the nig player can ignore the virus) as we found it had far too much impact on the game.

But we have found that by far the best answer to the high TR low TR problem is running a minor league, tournament, or conference (we have experimented with all three) in which the low tr teams can battle it out before joining in a Major tournament against the big boys.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:51 pm

Kharge - funny how similar solutions spring up all over the place. Our league has a minor league structure as well, where each coach can use 2 secondary teams and play non scheduled games. It's a very good solution to big differences in team rating.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:59 pm

Our league usually has either:

a) A superleague and a division 1 each season

OR:

b) A handicaped league where your league points are reduced if you play someone of a much lower rating (and vice versa)