Why fouling and crowd cas should be given spps again

[Skummy]

D'you actually believe that? 4 3 2 9 Block Tackle Guard Thick Skull is better at being a lineman and blocking than a 6 3 3 9. His biggest weakness is his low speed, but he starts with 2 skills and a trait that keeps him on the field to make up for it. He's not a blitzer or a scorer, but that's not his function. I can't think of a single team that couldn't use a player of this caliber added to the roster.

[Deathwing]

But they are linemen! And the best starting linemen in the game at that.
Guards and a coupla MB across the board at 6SPP makes some line.

What have Orc Blitzers got to do with it? Ok, so they're nearer in price, but what about a 5 3 3 9 Orc Lineman? At 6SPP he's gonna have Block.
Compare like with like.

[Ghost of Pariah]

No, you misunderstand me.

They are excellent linemen BUT name one other Blood Bowl team who have linemen that are stuck being linemen forever?

A human lineman can get a doubles roll and become anything he wants! A thrower, a dirty player, a kicker etc. Same for orcs, elves! (especially elves) etc. but a longbeard would need to be incredibly lucky to be anything but line fodder. And like I said they have great skills but a good coach can easily negate them. You don't see too many Gutter Runners have trouble avoiding the long beards on the line, do you?

[Ghost of Pariah]

...but what about a 5 3 3 9 Orc Lineman? At 6SPP he's gonna have Block.
Compare like with like.

Okay let's compare.

The orc linemen are capabale of catching and blitzing MA 7 receivers from the line. Longbeards are not.

Orc linemen are capable of becoming so-so blitzers or catchers with one doubles roll. Longbeards are not.

Orc linemen are able to dodge free of the line to catch players that break through and assist the rest of the team. longbeards are not.

Orc linemen have 4 ST 4 Blockers to support the line and help them break free when needed. longbeards do not.

On most orc teams orc linemen number less than 4 or 5...longbeards make up the bulk of the team.

Orc linemen are able to receive a pass in a pinch and score...longbeards are not (at least not likely)

enough?

I'm not saying they need improvement. (remember the topic) I'm sayingb that in 3rd edition longbeards got points by fouling. They aren't getting those spps anymore. They are developing slower. Other teams have linemen that are capable of doing other things. Zombies and Longberds are pretty much regulated to standing on the line and getting hit, standing back up and getting hit again.

[DoubleSkulls]

Pariah - I really disagree. Longbeards, as they don't need to take Block or Tackle have a huge advantage over most linemen. Don't compare them to blitzers, since they aren't even trying to fill that position. Compare them to Black Orcs.

First of all they can make reliably blocks from day 1, and are pretty good even with 1 die. This means they ought to be able to pick up SPPs at a steady rate.

Second: a line of 6 guarding longbeards is a complete pain for a long of strength teams. They just don't have enough strength & guards of their own to break it down.

Third: Give them MB and they'll pick up a casualty every few games so having a good progression.

Finally: Longbeards with Guard & MB are finished. Okay Pro would be nice, and Piling On could be a good choice but what else? All the other skills are doubles and you'll only get one of those every ~7th skill.

Black Orcs on the other hand get SPPs slower initially (because they don't have block) and have to take Block as their 1st skill. Making a longbeard with Guard & Tackle as effective.

[Ghost of Pariah]

Pariah - I really disagree. Longbeards, as they don't need to take Block or Tackle have a huge advantage over most linemen. Don't compare them to blitzers, since they aren't even trying to fill that position. Compare them to Black Orcs.

I just compared them to orc linemen. Where are you?

First of all they can make reliably blocks from day 1, and are pretty good even with 1 die. This means they ought to be able to pick up SPPs at a steady rate.

Where are the dwarf teams with the longbeards who improve a "steady rate" I'd like to see these.

Second: a line of 6 guarding longbeards is a complete pain for a long of strength teams. They just don't have enough strength & guards of their own to break it down.

Like I said, that is their one and only function...what else do you see them do since they take up biggest portion of the dwarf team? Also, I can't think of a single ST team that can't put multiple ST 4 on the line frome the get go. Only dwarfs have to wait for a level up.

Third: Give them MB and they'll pick up a casualty every few games so having a good progression.

Um...they need the 6 spp's first and in case you have't notcied they don't exactly earn those points as fast as other teams.

Finally: Longbeards with Guard & MB are finished. Okay Pro would be nice, and Piling On could be a good choice but what else? All the other skills are doubles and you'll only get one of those every ~7th skill.

Are you even listening to yourself? How long does it take you develop 7 longbeards to 11 spp's? It takes me a lifetime. I've nevber done it in fact.

Black Orcs on the other hand get SPPs slower initially (because they don't have block) and have to take Block as their 1st skill. Making a longbeard with Guard & Tackle as effective.

There isn't much difference between ST 4 and Block, son. A BoB with Block and ST 4 earns more sp points than a longbeard with guard. A long beard with guard sits on the line and mostlikely blcks trolls.

[DoubleSkulls]

I just take a long time writing!

Where are the dwarf teams with the longbeards who improve a "steady rate" I'd like to see these.

Look here

6 Longbeards. 19, 17, 14, 12, 7 & 0 SPPs after 16 games (I don't think they've all played all 16). This is better than many linemen and none of them have taken MB.

There isn't much difference between ST 4 and Block, son. A BoB with Block and ST 4 earns more sp points than a longbeard with guard. A long beard with guard sits on the line and mostlikely blcks trolls.

ST4 and Block is better than S3, Block & Guard. But by the time a BOB has got Block a lot of Longbeards will have MB & Guard. And there is a reason BOBs cost 10k more too.

BTW I think I'm a little bit old to get called son you patronizing *?%^

[Deathwing]

Orc linemen are capable of becoming so-so blitzers or catchers with one doubles roll. Longbeards are not.

Catchers? You're kidding, right? Who's gonna give Catch to a MA5 player on a double? Orc linemen are much more likely to take a strength skill on a double, like say, Guard for example?

Ah had a load more to say....but still got painting to finish before tomorrow morning...of course Orc lineman are better in some respects by dint of 1 more MA and 1 more AG..but the advantages of longbeards with their starting skills and ST access far outway these IMO.

[Skummy]

Okay, I can see Pariah's point. No stat increase is bad on Dwarves, and their lineman are not a threat to score. After 12 games, I have 6 human lineman with 14, 30, 15, 30, 12 and 7 SPP's. Block, +1 MV & Dauntless, Kick, Block & Dirty Player, Tackle, Dauntless.

Still, Longbeards are perfectly suited to play the Dwarvish style of play. Movement and Strength are excellent on them, and now with an agility roll you can pick a skill instead. You pay a lot up front for an excellent, resiliant player. They've proven that they're worth it.

[Ghost of Pariah]

I didn't say "catch" did I? What about dodge? MA 5, AG 3 and Dodge is a lot more versatile than MA 4 AG 2 and Dodge or Stand Firm or whatever.


Ian, 4 longbeards with 11+ spp's after 16 games is an exception not the rule, plus you didn't "show" me this league. How do i know he didn't play only goblins and Amazons? Is this league 3rd, 4th or LRB? What house rules do they use? Does this coach normal do well? I think this team is not the usual dwarf team. My last dwarf team retired at a TR of 250+ and I only had 4 longbeards with 11+ spps

Okay, so you both think that longbeards are everybit as good as orc linemen?

Could one of you please point towards the orc team that fields at least 5 lineorcs everygame and only usues them as line-fodder? I can't seem to find that team. I haven't seen a lot of orc linemen on the pitch...I wonder why that is?

The whole point I'm trying to make is that longbeards and zombies are the slowest developing players in the game, they are for a reason, I know. I'm not saying they need improving...you yabbos. I'm saying that the spp's they earned from fouling are gone and that has stunted their growth and I think that bringing in a system that allows spps for fouling could restore some of that growth.

[Skummy]

I can't point you to an Orc roster that uses more than 2 or 3 linemen because Orcs have 10 positional players that are clearly better. Dwarves have 6 positional players.

We are in agreement again about SPP gain though. The low agility players certainly earn SPP's much slower than their counterparts. The tradeoff is that they have higher armor and generally have a longer lifespan. I think the game has reached a very nice point of balance in the LRB system. Giving SPP's for fouls would likely upset it, and I don't really see a need for it.

[Munkey]

I am not a big fouler but I get that image pinned on me cuz I'd like to see a comeback.

Maybe this is part of the issue, Wesley, who started the thread, said the same thing. Perhaps you didn't foul enough in your 3ed games to realise how effective it really was.

I would have been the same but was forced into the DP/fouling war in order to compete. Even on my old Wood Elf roster the DP has the most star player points after the catchers.

I expect you will both come back and tell me i'm wrong but it's just a thought.

Oh, by the way Longbeards are much much better than Orc linemen.

[Ghost of Pariah]

I expect you will both come back and tell me i'm wrong but it's just a thought.

And you are right. lol We had coaches who fouled every turn. We had dirty players and all that jazz. Maybe somebody else can tell you my old league's rules for fouling...I'm not going to. Suffice to say, we had alot of it.

Oh, by the way Longbeards are much much better than Orc linemen.

'

Oh? Really I dind't know that. I guess the next time my runner's path is blocked I'll hand it off to a longbeard to get that much needed score.

Anyway, never said one was better than the other. I said that longbeards are the slowest developing and least versatile player in the game. Better or worse doesn't factor in.

[Munkey]

I expect you will both come back and tell me i'm wrong but it's just a thought.

And you are right.

Fair enough, just crossed my mind as I was catching up on the thread.

Oh, by the way Longbeards are much much better than Orc linemen.

'

Oh? Really I dind't know that. I guess the next time my runner's path is blocked I'll hand it off to a longbeard to get that much needed score.

Anyway, never said one was better than the other. I said that longbeards are the slowest developing and least versatile player in the game. Better or worse doesn't factor in.

I think my Black Orcs would have something to say about slowest developing but point taken they aren't the fastest to get skills (maybe not a bad thing though).

As for least versitile I guess we're not counting big guys, or mummies, or CD's or anything else slow and with low AG I don't think versitility is meant to be a Dwarf teams strength.

[Skummy]

Black Orcs give them a run for slowest developing player, in my experience.