Fouling for SPPs

Pantera · Post by **Pantera** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:30 pm

But thats a risk playing a team with a full score if you don't have a full team yourself. The ratio of being sent off should be somewhat less than 50% (with argue the call). And doing a CAS on that foul should be pretty uncommon even with many mods to the roll (assists, dp etc).

A good coach does whats neccesary to win. If I play a Halfling team against a Orc team, I would think that the opponent is going to hit my halflings as hard as he can every turn. Not play nice just because I have halflings. The same for using fouls to your advantage. If he had met another tought team with full Cockerel, he wouln't have fouled as much. Perhaps if he had a good chance to take out a key player. Using your possibilities to the max.

Rupert · Post by **Rupert** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:50 pm

Yes but still there should be some risk involved. In the current case ther was no risk what so ever.

Pantera · Post by **Pantera** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:12 pm

No, there is no physical risk. But thats not often the case when fouling a player who is already down. The risk is being penalised, and loosing the game by getting players sent off.

It is possible to add a risk with a house rule, lets say you roll 2d6 on the foul instead. On a roll of 2 you trip when trying to foul and the opposing player may roll a AV roll. The player is also sent off. In addition to this you are sent off on a 3-4 to. You may argue the call. If IGMEOY is on you, you are sent off on a 3-7 result. Or something like that.

Vesticle · Post by **Vesticle** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:17 pm

The math of the situation I already posted in a previous post...

The risk of fouling is that you have a high chance of a turnover, and losing the player for the game. Especially if you try it more than once per half if your opponent hasn't decided to join in the festivities. Though you have no 'physical risk', being sent off for the entire game is the exact same result as being badly hurt. The person being fouled risks injury, which is more than likely being stunned or KO'ed, both of which are more favorable results for the person getting fouled. If it makes you feel better about the situation, call a player who is called for a foul "badly hurt", and say that when he goes to the penalty box, the fans beat him up and he's too bloody to play in the rest of the game. It'd be the same result in terms of technical gameplay.

Fouling is a tactical move, just as blocking, dodging, passing, handing off, etc. You have to play to your advantage, and play to your opponent's disadvantage. If your opponent is faster and more skilled, you need to punish them physically to win, just as you need to out dodge, run, and skill your opponent if they outclass you physically. If you foul a player, you are trying to injure him, thus gaining a numbers advantage. You risk losing your own player instead, or as well.

Like the previous example, we'll say there's one assist on a foul on a human lineman (what most people consider to be the most average player, so we'll use him for the examples). That's a +2 to penetrate armor 8, so 7+ on 2d6, which is 21/36 or 58.3%. Then you roll on the injury table. 2-7 = stunned, so that's 21/36% or 58.3%, 8-9 = KO'ed, or 25%, 10-12 - casualty or 16.7%. If a casualty occurs, 1-3 it's badly hurt or 50%, 4-5 it's seriously injured or 33%, 6 it's death or 16.7%. The total percentages then, are as follows:

Nothing: 41.7%
Stunned: 34%
KO'ed: 14.6%
Badly hurt: 4.9%
Serously injured: 3.2%
Killed: 1.6%

The risks for the fouler is as follows: Getting thrown out of the game (equivalent of badly hurt) on a 6, 4+ during IGMEOY. Chance to argue the call is successful on a 6. Also note that a fouler being thrown out of the game creates a turnover, a person being fouled does not. I'll ignore for now the coach getting thrown out of the game, because I'm lazy, and it doesn't make much difference to the numbers anyway. So 16.7% of the fouler being sent off, 50% during IGMEOY, 16.7% to 'save' him from argue the call. Total:

Badly hurt (equivalent): 13.9%; Nothing: 86.1%
Badly hurt if IGMEOY: 41.7%; Nothing: 58.3%

Then as a direct comparison in which player suffers a lesser 'injury'...
Fouler 'wins': 50.9%, Foulee 'wins': 12.5%, Tie: 36.5%

Under IGMEOY:
Fouler 'wins': 36%, Foulee 'wins': 37.7%, Tie: 26.3%

In either case, in only 4.8% of attempts, less than 1 in 20, will the fouler injure someone worse the badly hurt, which is exactly the fate he risks himself.

Then, in terms of SPP, if your fouler is sent off, he can no longer gain any SPP. And if it was a player you wanted to gain SPP, it will often be a player who had SPP already, and often one of your more used or better players.

In light of all this, I don't see such a big problem. Also, as a last quick note, compare to the risk of a human lineman blocking an opponent: 1 block die without block. The blocker will only be badly hurt, or worse, 2.3% of the time.

David

Pantera · Post by **Pantera** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:08 pm

Thanks for the odds.

Anyway, I'm totally for adding SPP's to fouls again.

Rupert · Post by **Rupert** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:44 pm

Let me clarify my position then: Trying to inflict damage on another player by fouling should involve risk of personal damage on the player fouling.

If some kind of tiny risk is involved, maybe the fouler should recive spp. Just give the "victim" of foul play the occational satisfaction of seing the fouler go down.

Rupert · Post by **Rupert** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:48 pm

I may not be objective on this since I just had my team messed up because my opponent got the ref twice and fouled something like 10 turns and that was without getting spp.

Bob-the-Fish · Post by **Bob-the-Fish** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:24 am

I posted on another thread similar to this one and I still say fouls should give SPPs for a couple of reasons:
1. It did before and I never saw a problem. The same players I play against who used to foul a lot still do it with the same frequency.
2. Some teams and players can't get SPPs very fast, namely strength players or goblins and other small types. This gives them a possiblity to get a couple of points.
3. "Fluff" wise, SPPs are the Spike! rating which in all those "did you knows" includes things about how ruthless the players are. Carnage is such an important part of blood bowl that it should always be rewarded. Someone mentioned SPPs for all casualties caused by a player, which makes sense fluff wise.
4. The league I play with decided to go ahead and allow players to gain SPPs for fouls and after about 20 games only 4 players in the league have gotten any points anyway. Just because its easier to beat the armour doesn't make it any easier to roll a 10+ for the injury.

I would agree that it should be somewhat harder to get away with a foul. What edition was it where if your opponent had the ref it was anything but a double and you were ejected? My skaven lineman got sent off every game after 1 foul with those rules.
Maybe make it a 5+ with out ref and 3+ with? Or for every assist or two add +1 to the roll. Or go back to the doubles on an armour roll.

Pantera · Post by **Pantera** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:12 am

Maybe Get the Ref could be changed so the player never gets IGMEOY for the rest of the half instead of no penalties at all. That makes GTR a bonus, but not so all-out like it is now.

What I mean is instead of first foul must roll 2+ to not be sent of and 4+ with IGMEOY, you can foul for the rest of the half at 2+ all the time.

Furelli · Post by **Furelli** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:20 am

Maybe just making being sent off worse.
Miss the rest of this game and the whole of the next!
Is that enough risk for you

Furelli.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:56 pm

Pantera wrote:Maybe Get the Ref could be changed so the player never gets IGMEOY for the rest of the half instead of no penalties at all. That makes GTR a bonus, but not so all-out like it is now.

What I mean is instead of first foul must roll 2+ to not be sent of and 4+ with IGMEOY, you can foul for the rest of the half at 2+ all the time.

IIRC Chet posted in another thread suggesting that GTR becomes a +2 modifier to your argue the calls rolls (so you wont get sent off on a 4+ rather than 6). I think this is a good idea that keeps the flavour of GTR but makes it less of a game winner.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:39 pm

I suggested it elsewhere, but the idea isn't mine. (I think it belonged to Martin Laerkes once upon a time.) I think the "no IGMEOY" restriction would work rather well, too. Anything that makes GtR less a game-breaker without making it useless for the team that wins is good, IMO. A lot of coaches have expressed concern over this particular result over the years. (Same with PI, of course.)

-Chet

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:12 pm

Undead coaches wouldn't be too happy about the change though - they effectively can't argue any calls since if the coach gets sent off they can't regenerate.

Maybe, instead of a +2, make it a reroll of the argue. Then undead coaches can argue once, rerolling if they get a '1' while everyone else can reroll so long as they don't get a '6'. The odds aren't as good (11/36 vs 1/2), but it substantially reduces the chance of the head coach being sent off.

Ian

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:56 pm

Undead coaches wouldn't be too happy about the change though - they effectively can't argue any calls since if the coach gets sent off they can't regenerate.

That's been written out of the rules - quite intentionally, I might add. Necromancers are now free to AtC with the best of 'em.

Cheers!

-Chet

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:07 pm

That's been written out of the rules

As in currently written out of the rules? I can't see any reference to it in the LRB but I don't have a copy of DZ here for reference.

I note that Regen is a racial characteristic so I assume that's what you mean.

Marcus