Lizardmen are unstoppable!!!

[Sputnik]

Marcus wrote:

Your win at the Spiky had less to do with the strength of lizardmen as a team and more to do with your skill as a coach.

Thank you, I am honored.

But do not forget I won the final because the ball came loose from your player AND scattered into the 'right' position for my Blacky (after too many failed catches of all the folks around) AND you had a turnover while blocking the next turn, giving me the possibility to run away.

It is not only about coaching ability but also about the luck of dice which let you down in a very good field position but in a very unfortunate moment.....

Nevertheless, I agree with you that there is an element of surprise when many coaches face the lizzards the first time.

But as with all teams you get used to the different possibilities and styles of that specific team and develop a countertactic which (you think) seems to be most promising.

I was actually thinking about this today. There's a lot of discussion on this board about what to do with team "x" vs team "y" and not a lot of discussion as to good, solid general tactics

IMO lizzies are a good example of general tactics not fitting to a certain extent. You have to modify a lot more here and there, compared to other races. I guess this is why people here basically post their expicit difficulties with some races rather than refer to solid tactics in general.

But to add another point to yours: coaches sometimes also forget about their personal style. They may prefer fast scoring teams, mobile players or hard hitters and often enough tend to play up to their basic ideas and beloved concepts in their mind instead to the strength of their team on the pitch. It's easy to take dwarfs, make as many blocks as possible during one's own turn and give every longbeard skills like guard and MB or, on doubles, stand firm. But it will take a lot more to be successful with dwarves than just that...

Sputnik

[woodnoggin]

My suggestion would be to play more games and practice with the Dwarf team.

I have never seen a Lizardman team that was a challenge for one of the teams from the original rulebook. Yes they have good strength players and good speed players, but no inbetween players. They don't have any average linemen. They have nothing to get them out of tight spots. You need to put more pressure on the Lizardmen. Don't give them the opportunities to hide the Skinks away at the back while the Sauruses soak up and deal out damage on the front line.

Dwarfs have the advantage of many starting skills, so make use of them. Most of your players have Block, which is a BIG advantage against starting teams. That becomes less useful against advanced teams, but if your Dwarfs are correspondingly advanced you should have plenty of Guard players by then. The Saurus ST4 becomes much less of a problem with a few Guard players to even things up. Moreover, you have Dauntless Troll Slayers (how hard is it to roll 5+ on 2D6?)!

Never make blocks on two dice with the opponent choosing. They should be reserved for very desperate circumstances. As for one Saurus tieing up two Dwarfs just to get a one dice block, I'd say it's worth doing that in most situations: the Dwarfs are likely to knock the Saurus down. Pick your fights carefully. Choose a key Saurus to take down each turn, prefereably one which will open a gap in your opponent's line once he's on the floor. When he's knocked over, get through the hole and start oppressing Skinks. They're nice and weak - their armour is poor and they mash up something good. So beat on them. Put Tackle skill next to them and they'll fear it. Make him try and block you on two dice your choice for a change.

The Sauruses are distracting you from your real targets. Which players does he score TDs with? I'd bet it's the Skinks: they can handle the ball, the Sauruses can't unless he's being lucky with dice rolls. If he leaves a hole in his line, exploit it. If he doesn't, you've got to break through. Failing that, he has to bring Skinks forward at some point for them to score. You should always try to maximise the opportunities for hurting his weaker players. Hey - maybe you could take a Deathroller. Do they still have those in the official rules?

When you've got the ball the trusty cage should serve you well. He's going to send Sauruses to try and break it. But there's only so many he can send. Remember only half his team is strong, the other half is fast. That's only half as much of a strength threat as a Chaos team, for example. If he uses Skinks to help with cage-breaking, all the better. Pick on them, it's easy and fun.

A cage with Guard players on all points is really annoying for an opponent to break into. If you can get the right skills, the fact that some of his players have ST4 will be of little significance. Then he might get a Skink with Dirty Kick (if you're using those rules). Shame - that Skink just painted a big target on his face.

There's lots of stuff you can do. Play more is the main one. Advance your team playing less scary opponents. If you're team gets to 300 Team Rating and the Lizardmen have still only played 5 games you're going to outclass him, no question. It's an option to consider if the Lizardman coach plays only a few games.

I don't understand how Lizardmen could be described as a 'broken' team yet I keep reading this here. In my experience they are a mediocre team at best. Well done if you've won a tournament with them, you must be a good coach. Either that or your opponents were bad ones...

[Thadrin]

(how hard is it to roll 5+ on 2D6?)!

Surprisingly hard at just the wrong time. Ask my Slayer who managed to bodge a pair of dauntless rolls against a BULL CENTAUR last game...he still didn't go down though.

Never make blocks on two dice with the opponent choosing.

I disagree. There is only a 1 in 6 chance of your Longbeard falling over. on two dice opponent's choice this gives a failure chance of about 30% that you're falling over on the block. on the other hand, the saurus in question is pushed back or knocked over 70% of the time. I like those odds.
Thrwo in a reroll chance and you could be quids in even on a two dice against.

[Dave]

agree, two dice blocks (opponents choosing) are not that bad.

Especially if you got Block

[woodnoggin]

Push backs are just not good enough here and are often a wasted block. You need the Saurus on the floor, which will happen 9 times in 36. However, 11 times in 36 the Longbeard will end up on the floor (ending the turn, remember). The other 16 times will push the Saurus back. Fine if you only need the push back, poor odds if you want him down. And you've got to want him down.

[Dragoonkin]

Why do you want the Saurus down? If he's pushed back and you don't follow up, he isn't hitting anyone next turn without wasting the Blitz. And if you get more than one Pushback, that forces your opponent into a choice of who to hit. Which is better than him getting BOTH hits.

[woodnoggin]

Why wouldn't you want the Saurus down? Hurts more.
But if you're trying to break a hole in the Lizardmen line to get Dwarfs through to put pressure on the Skinks in the back, more often than not you need the Saurus to be knocked down. If he's just pushed back chances are you won't have created a big enough gap to get other players through.

[Evil Git]

of course you'd like to get the knock down, i mean who wouldn't. but a push back is not necessarily a bad roll. if you get two push backs and don't follow up with the blocks then the lizards have to choose who to blitz. thus making your life a bit easier for a bit.

[Dragoonkin]

IE, you take what's feasible to get. Sure a knockdown would be great; but you're not so likely to get it.

And when it's a double-die against you; you take your Pushbacks when they're handed to you. Consider it a gift.

Complaining about "only" getting a Pushback on a double-die-against is just not living with a healthy enough sense of fear of the old Skull.

[Dave]

Agreeand if you push him around a lot you can disrupt his plans And only be blitzed once. I feel that it ain't that bad ..

[Grumbledook]

The whole point in putting someone next to the sauras so they can block him is to stop him blitzing. He is going to blitz and with mv6 st4 they have a lot of choice, the idea is to prevent the lizzies the choice and to hold their players up. Sure you will get blocked but sometimes you have to sacrifice players for field position.

[Dave]

I need to agree there.

Still, the best saurus are these that live in zoos

Especially with skill - less teams, the approach will be best (get your skilled players next to them ASAP)

[grimfang]

When playing against lizards, we all know that it is important to gang up with the blocking. Two options are available that will help maximize the number of blockers available per hit. You can focus on driving them up the sidelines, thus forcing them to run into multiple blockers... or you can try to drive them up the middle, into the center of the storm! Either way, you will be sacrificing coverage in a different part of the field. I fight them along the sidelines when possible... It allows my opponents to score a bit more often than i would like, but this is usually offset by the number of toadies I can put out of action. But.. as with all great plans in this game.. it does not always work.

[Gorblitz!!]

Ive found in the few games against lizzies that if you drive a cage up the sidezone leaving a lineman-type or two to throw a TZ on the line saurus and krox that you end up deep in their side with a bunch of ST2 squishies between you and a TD.

If the lizzie boy gets wise to this and redeploys STR to the sides it weakens his line and then traditional cages are the way to go.

If you dont like 2 dice his choice blocks, dont throw them. I dont. I make him throw the dice. Every dice he throws in his turn is another chance for him to blow a roll.

[Heiper]

I played lizzies with my Dwarf yesterday (each had played 4 games before this match). I won 1-0, i think i could have done 2-0 if it had not been for Riot TWISE. I was "lucky" enough to roll 11 on Weather, so his guys without Sure Hands had trouble with the ball and had to use rerolls on things like that. I kicked to him, but scored a TD in Round6. Kickoff Riot for two rounds. He kicked to me in second half, Riot for 4 rounds, and a fumble on picking up the ball lost my chance for a second TD (to few rounds to run up when the fumble came)

Lizzies are stoppable, as everyone is saying, keep the saurus WAY off your ballcarrier, by methods said in this thread, and you should pull it off. A few lucky dice won't hurt either