The Great Roster Cull

[spubbbba]

Did anyone actually claim apes fit the fluff as well?

I don’t think there has been more than a passing mention of apes in warhammer fluff much less BB.

I do seem to remember there being many different types of beastman discussed in their army book so that could work I guess.

[garion]

dont get rid of any rosters.

get rid of decay on Khemri.
make all big guys cheaper.
give ogres 0-8 ogres
Change titchy to how it worked in Tom Anders Fanatic article.
zons need a complete overhaul to make them interesting.
change pact skill access. Marauders GS (M on doubles) big guys get M on singles.
make slaann blitzers 10k cheaper.
Dwarves lose tackle on their blockers and gain tackle on their blitzers.
Allow a choice of big guys in a lot of rosters like LRB4, eg. norse could have minotaur, snow troll or ogre.
allow humans to have minotaurs or treemen, so we can have evil humans and good humans to fit the fluff.
maybe change pro elf passers to kickers with P access and kick skill, just to make them and high elves a little more different.

That would do me.

edit: oh and burn the khorne roster and create a new one from scratch without stupid limitations put on it by a clueless company.

edit edit: also change the names of players to CRP pre Gamesworkshops 'involvement'

[Rolex]

I'll try to be constructive.

Undead: drop the discount on wights.
Amazon: correct price on throwers, discount on catchers. Don't mess with the "flat" stats. It's what makes them particular, their niche. You don't like it, you play another team.
Dwarf: if you take tackle away from lineman you have to rework the balance of all the agility teams and amazon. I don't like them but i think they are fine.
Khemri: Thick skull on throw-ra and blitz-ra.
Humans: AV 8 catchers and 130k ogre
Slann: 100k blitzers
CP: giving mutations on single rolls to the big guys would be a ridiculous boost. Taking away pass or mutations from the maraunders would just fail the pourpose of the team (remake the Chaos-All-Stars).
Vampires: TS thralls (maybe)
Ogres: 130k ogres
Goblin: Passing skills on the bombardier
Halfling: a 0-2 positional with DP (it's someway in the fluff, when it describes the Iron Cook).

I think these may be good. Anything more would be messing with a sistem that is almost perfect.

I would keep the Khorne's Daemons roster as it is awesome to play. Maybe a Deamon roster for every power would be nice (if made by Galak on the same tier).
I think that the final number of rosters should be a multiple of 11 since it's the sacred number of Nuffle.
So down to 22 or up to 33.

Galak is my sheperd. I lack nothing.

[Sandwich]

change pact skill access. Marauders GS (M on doubles) big guys get M on singles.

CP: giving mutations on single rolls to the big guys would be a ridiculous boost. Taking away pass or mutations from the maraunders would just fail the pourpose of the team (remake the Chaos-All-Stars).

I agree with adding M access for th big guys on normal rolls, and losing the P access on marauders. I think putting in a Marauder Thrower position could be an idea - after all, the Chaos AllStars had 1 thrower, not 11 (actually it would have been a max of 7 humans on the roster I suppose, as big guys counted as 2).

[garion]

yup adding a 0-2 marauder with P access Pass skill would be fine too and far more inkeeping with the team background

[Rolex]

One of the problem CP has with the team building guidelines is that it has to many positions (7, shouldn't be more than 6).

Since i don't think you will EVER give passing skill to more than 2 maraunders in the team, the problem is more estetical than practical, and therefore not a big issue.

It would be like shooting mosquitoes with a cannon.

[garion]

not that big a problem though is it, for me the Big Guys only count as 1 anyway collectively.

But there are about 4 or 5 teams that break the guide lines. Off the top of my head -

Dwarf, Pact, Vampires, Khemri, and Slann maybe???

cant remember exactly but im fairly certain there are a few of them.

Anyway they are guide lines not laws really. If it makes the team more interesting and fun without being over powered or over subscribed then there is no problem.

[Rolex]

not that big a problem though is it, for me the Big Guys only count as 1 anyway collectively.

But there are about 4 or 5 teams that break the guide lines. Off the top of my head -

Dwarf, Pact, Vampires, Khemri, and Slann maybe???

cant remember exactly but im fairly certain there are a few of them.

Anyway they are guide lines not laws really. If it makes the team more interesting and fun without being over powered or over subscribed then there is no problem.

It's like this:

"2) Please note … the above rules will NOT allow you to create 4 of the official teams … namely the Dwarf, Goblin, Chaos Pact and Lizardman teams. The Goblin and Dwarf teams because they have weapons on the roster, Chaos Pact because they have too many slots (7) and the Lizardman team because it has 70k of team discount (10k discount each on the 0-6 Saurus and the 0-1 Kroxigor)."

I agree with the fact that they are guidelines, but pretty good ones. I wouldn't mess with them just for estetics, but only for important balance reasons.

[garion]

Yup but dropping M access to doubles for marauders while giving the fairly useless big guys M access on singles is a fairly big nerf imo. It just changes the focus of team to the big guys instead of the marauders which is a really good thing imo.

giving them a couple of throwers isn't going to upset anything balance wise. Also 2 P marauders that are 10k more with Pass isnt much of a boost imo. It would make them a little more interesting to play with though and would also fit the fluff.

[Rolex]

Nope! It's a Monster Boost.

Let's make an exemple. Let's say that most of your team has reached his first skill.

Under current rules: You will probably have a Juggernaut Mino and a guard Troll and Ogre. There's a 50% chance 1 of them rolled a double and you have 1 Mighty Claw (which is a huge boost for this team).
Maraunders have a variety of skills: 1 Leader, some block, some guard.
Your primary ballhandler is the dark elf.
Your strategy is trying to get on the other side of the pitch with him on attack since animosity makes giving the ball away risky, while trying to defend yourself and compensate the failed rolls of the big guys.
It' an exercise of controlling chaos and be prepared when everything goes wrong.
If you activate all 3 big guys the same turn you are in deep trouble or you are playing wrong.

Under the suggested changes:You will have 3 Mighty Claw ST 5 guys. There's a 50% chance 1 of them rolled a double and you have 1 Block. 1 Marauder has Leader, ALL the others have guards. On average 1 has claw (more than it would have). You have 1 strategy: 3 dice blocks with Mighty Claw.
If anything survives, foul. Your first ballhandler is the thrower that passes or hands-off to the regagades (neutralizing animosity).
This is not more interesting. It's almost brainless playing.

With further team development it gets worse (a hint: tentacles). This is close to a top tier team.
At the second skill you will probably have 4/5 MClaws (3 ST 5 of which 1 with block-2 tentacles) and no skills but guard (block second). The cas throphy has a winner!
This makes the old Khemri look like the Salvation Army.

Worse it would totally mess the meta-game since this team is gonna RAPE the top tier-high AV teams, when they are at their strongest (before Chaos skills up) making them a very bad choice.

Sorry.
I think it an awful idea. Very shortsighted.

[Daht]

Yeah, when I got back into the game after a 10+ year layoff and was still readjusting to the rules (had last been playing with hybrid 2nd/3rd edition house rules) I thought it a bit of a gyp the pact big guys needing doubles while chaos minotaur didn't.. but 3 str5 claw/mb's with no doubles really funnells the team into a superkill team.

I think in most NAF style tournaments it wouldn't be a huge prob, but in a 2-skill per player tourney or league pact would get insane.

[garion]

Rolex I couldn't disagree with you more. Having a choice between a pact team with 3 big guys with cpomb or 6 marauders with cpomb and one token big guy I know which one I would rather face. It would be the big guy one by miles. If you think having 3 cpomb big guys would be the better team I would suggest you haven't played enough against pact. They are far far better with killer marauders. 3 big guys are such a liability and having to use the to cause the damage would be far harder to manage. It would also stop the minmax crazness with them.

[Darkson]

3 cpomb big guys = 120k (6*normal skills)

6 cpomb marauders = 360k (18*normal skills)

Give the big guy's 240k of support,.and I think they're be better.


In other words, I agree it's a bad idea.

[garion]

yup but you are only adding the costs of the skills add the cost of the players to that too.

Big Guys suck more so in this edition than they ever have before. But I would also be happy to see marauders with just GM access on singles if you really think that would be too powerful.

The teams focus should be on the big guys and not on the marauders imo. Its why it is currently the blandest of all the rosters if you play it to its maximum potential which is 1 big guy a load of killer marauders and an elf plus gobo for OTT.

3 cpomb big guys = 120k (6*normal skills)

totals at 520with big guys
and you still need 8 players to complete the roster. +400 minimum
920 total

6 cpomb marauders = 360k (18*normal skills)
660 with marauder costed.
but now you only need 5 players to complete your roster so +250 minimum
910 total

its pretty clear which is more powerful to me.

[SillySod]

Its pretty clear which is more powerful to me.

... then you have a horrible case of tunnel vision.

Big guys are very powerful within the context of a young team. They are high strength concrete blocks that have mighty blow. That makes them strong pieces for creating positional advantage while also chucking out multiple 3-dice blocks with mighty blow. Rookie marauders don't come close. It takes multiple skills for the marauders to become objectively better and that only happens because skills are wildly undercosted.

Big guys skill very quickly. If you grant them mutation access then one will have claw within two games and all three will have claw in the space of five. That would be horrendous. You would tone down some of the top end builds (including the TV1000 style builds) but you would make it far easier to achieve those builds. Currently an all marauder pact team has to endure a period where they are unskilled and underpowered. This makes them less prevalent on FUMBBL and almost a complete non-entity in tabletop.