Ogres in Dwarf Teams

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:14 pm

I completely agree, but now I can have an Ogre (and can't have a Deathroller) I take the ogre.
And then I start thinking...

And I just don't like the idea of an ogre playing on the same side as my dwarfs, but I need the ogre to get even with all the other big Guys around...

I just hope the need for an ogre gets sorted out of the system when the new weapon rules arrive!

Post by **Dave** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:06 pm

I think this discussion is not about just Dwarves and Ogres but BG's in general. (and has probabely been discussed before ...)

I think there are some teams that, fluff wisy, should not be allowed BG's
High and Dark elves Dwarves and Amazones are these for me.

These races are just too much on themselves to play with other races on their teams.

For most other races it feels okay if they have BG's.

Some races may be subject to debate. Wood Elves for example. Fluff wise the Trees are in place. But you could give High Elves Hippo griffs or some other fancy beast then.

So for me it would be no ogre on the team, fluff wise that is. play wise I would allways take one. ST5 shoould not be underestimated.

(My Norse's team's Ogre (ME??) even has Frenzy. Makes a perfect blocker.)

Post by **Thadrin** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:30 pm

If you're going to remove the Ogre from the Dwarfs - with or without the Deathroller, a point which I don't think really has any bearing anyway cos its a "Secret" weapon - I want the majority of other teams to lose their big guys too. Fair's fair. I have ST3 guys, while I have to go up against an Orc team with 4 Black Orcs and a Troll or an Ogre? Gee. Thanks. That sounds fair.

Big Guys have become a staple of EVERY team. That is not a good thing. So here's what I propose.:
Three teams TOTAL are allowed big guys on roster. These are:
Halflings: 0-2 Treemen
Goblins: 0-2 Trolls
Chaos: 0-2 Ogres or Minotaurs.

In the case of Chaos, each Big Guy occupies a Chaos Warrior slot, so you may have two big guys, but you may then only have two Chaos Warriors. Reasonable trade off I think. Do you want the extra strength, or the extra agility and reliability?

HOWEVER...
The rest of the races may occasionally get a Big guy along to help out. The following teams may hire the following Big Guys as FREEBOOTERS.
Human, Dwarf, Norse - Ogre
Orc - Troll
Amazon, Lizardman - Kroxigor
Wood Elf, High Elf - Treeman
Dark Elf, Chaos Dwarf - Minotaur
Skaven - Rat Ogre
Undead...lets wait and see what actually happens with them until they get in on this idea huh?

Everyone still has the availability of a Big Guy. It costs more. No team wins the arms race. There's another tactical decision though.

This may get poeple screaming balance problems, but this is another one of my "cycling home from work" ideas, and really is just a preliminary outline. I think it has definite potential though, and certainly more in the spirit to which Big Guys should be a part of the game.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:12 pm

Hmm.. ho.

Seems obvious to me that fluffwise, orges do not fit in with a dwarf team. Dwarfs don't like ogres, except they like to hit them. Dwarfs would do perfectly well without them. Any coach that feels the dwarves suddenly aren't competitive, because theydon't have a big guy, should rethink his tactics. The entire team comes with block and tackle. And after a while, every damn longbeard sports guard, which makes up for not having a BG imo.

Compare them with HE if you will. Very opposite teams. They were fairly even IMO. But throw in an ogre in the bargain, and it upsets the balance. Sure sure, I know HE get 4 LW. So maybe dwarves should get 4 runners, or maybe 4 blitzers? That would even out. Give the team more agility aswell.

Remember, the other strength teams can't have ST skills on their basic players. and only neding one increase to get guard makes up for not having a BG.

Oh, and Thadrin, I could agree with you're ide concerning BG's. Only Skaven should have a rat ogre. I almost feel that the Rat Ogre would fit in as a position player. But as a big guy at least.

And BTW, to those who think the treeman is so good. He's not, He sucks. Never gets anywhere, hardly shows up for the match, and impossible to get on his feet.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:24 pm

I would have to say that I thinks Thads idea has some potential. I like the idea that only stunties and chaos can have BGs as part of their lineup, does fit fluff wise. Freebooting BGs for the other teams is fine, just need to maybe adjust the list a little.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:34 pm

Whether or not dwarves have a Deathroller makes no difference. He's the most pathetic star player in the game, even worse than prince Moron. I'd take rookie longbeard over a Deathroller anyday.

I really don't see anything wrong with ogres on dwarf teams. I feel that they fit perfectly.

Heiper · Post by **Heiper** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:15 am

I must say I like that idea Thadrin, seems very intresting to try something like that out.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:16 am

Zombie wrote:Whether or not dwarves have a Deathroller makes no difference. He's the most pathetic star player in the game, even worse than prince Moron. I'd take rookie longbeard over a Deathroller anyday.

I really don't see anything wrong with ogres on dwarf teams. I feel that they fit perfectly.

But then you haven't seen the psychological effect the Deathroller has. Everybody just goes wild and either starts fleeing or they all gang up and start hitting it. It's great, and it helps you get people away from the other dwarfs.
Makes it worth it everyday. Just don't forget to make splattering noises each time you drive over one of your opponents

Oh, and Roysorlie

Ever played Dwarfs against Orcs; with 4 BO and an Ogre???

Just try it some day.

R

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:30 am

It only works psychologically on newbies, and the ganging up will only last one turn, i.e. until he's knocked over. Easy enough since he has neither block nor dodge. And as soon as he's knocked over, he's out for the game.

Field a Deathroller against me and all it means is that you'll be playing with a man short after one turn. Deathrollers are easier to take out than snotlings, by far.

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 9:34 am

I voted no, as I field a Deathroller, as you have one drive which if all goes well will eat up 7 turns then it is a safe bet that it will cause 3 or 4 casualties/KO's which should weaken the opposition enough.

I don't feel an Ogre would have a place in a team which has manic orange haired psychotics who have real small man syndrome symptoms.

Blackscale · Post by **Blackscale** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 10:44 am

The Ogre has a great psychological effect if you play against a weaker, smaller team. Also, extra muscle in a hitting team like dwarves is never wrong. Certainly makes it easier to deal with Lizardmen.
Personally, I would like to see a Big Guy for the amazons; they could really use one, espescially against those tackling dwarves.

shaniepoo · Post by **shaniepoo** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 11:17 am

Thinking about it i really like Thadrins idea. The stunties i agree should be able to take a BG.
As for the Chaos im not sure, i think that they should freeboot like the other guys. Why should they have BG's and not others?
Skaven should be aloud RO because they are a part of their race. They dont find/ hire them, they create them.
Freebooting BG's is a great idea, obviously they wownt get any SSP's but if you are only paying 1/2 the price then you cant argue.....or can you?

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 12:16 pm

shaniepoo wrote:Thinking about it i really like Thadrins idea. The stunties i agree should be able to take a BG.
As for the Chaos im not sure, i think that they should freeboot like the other guys. Why should they have BG's and not others? ?

Its the trade off against the Chaos Warrior thats the kicker: Do you want ST4/AG3 or do you want ST5/AG2/Neg. trait/Higher cost?

shaniepoo wrote: Skaven should be aloud RO because they are a part of their race. They dont find/ hire them, they create them.

Ah...I'd thought about that: Remember the SKaven team fluff - all Skaven Blood Bowl players are members of Clan Rigens. The Freebooting of Rat Ogres would be the Clan Rigens teams hiring in the Rat Ogres from Clan Moulder! (Lets not get into the clan league thing here.)
"Want rent-rent the rat-ogre do you? So pay-pay lots of gold-gold shall you. He better not die-die or I know this guy in Clan Pestilens..."

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 12:29 pm

I don't like the freeboot-version. There's no room for BG development there. Which could be the point, but I don't like it.

But the ideal situation would be one where the benefits and drawbacks from having a BG would be approximately equal. Maybe increase reroll price by 10k if there's a BG in the team?

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:16 pm

You want to develop big guys? then play a Halfling, Goblin or Chaos team - or even the Ogre team we know is coming.
Simple.

I am pretty sick of EVERY team having a Big Guy as standard at some stage in its development.

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Ogres in Dwarf Teams

Do you field Dwarfs with an Ogre?