"The Ogre Situation" - General poll

[Dragoonkin]

Yeah that's Pikachu...he's an insanity machine. :/ The Cas he gets are incredible.

[Mirascael]

As for the Mino with insane Cas (that's Pikachu, I bet...deathgerbil is a crazy man) I can tell you he got 'em all legitimately.

More than that. Under extremely tough conditions actually. And that Mino even hasn't got any doubles or stat increases.

[manusate]

I don´t think that the success of certain player in certain league proves anything at all. Just that someone was lucky somewhere and came up with a walking nightmare under current rules doesn´t mean that this is a common scenario. That brings light on the discussion about WA? I don´t think so. Posts like Marcus´ about the Rat Ogre do.

I´m not sure about many things, but one of them is that current WA should be modified. Maybe not exactly toned down, but modified. Right now, in both e-leagues I play (and the tabletop one) Rat Ogres have vanished. No one plays them nowadays. You can still see the occasional minotaur, but you can bet there is a novice coach behind.

It should be more common to see Minos and Trolls around. And this souldn´t be done restricting Ogre access all around (I´d like it to be removed from the stunties and dwarves BTW), but slightly balancing BGs. One option is making the Ogre worse. The other is making the Troll and the Mino better.

Given that WA is virtually unplayable now because the cheap "WA lock", and it should be modified no matter how popular the Ogre is, I´d advocate for the second option. With a enjoyable WA and a slightly better Troll, the Ogre woulnd´t be the BG of choice.

Of course, you can advocate for the first option, thus making the Ogre worse. Still, a WA revision is in order.


Manu

[Thadrin]

AS far as wild animal goes I think the problem can be summed up in two points:
1) Its not really "Wild" enough. Negative enough - yes, wild enough - no.
2) Any effect that means leaving the player down is a common tactic is broken.

I STILL like the Fanatic move on a one idea (I think JKL's league is trying something along thee lines.)

[bj0rn]

something like 112 Cas before he died

reminds me of my star longbeard Maggi, player of the infamous team Icelandic geeks. After 14 matches he has accumulated a whooping total of 44 casualties...thats thats a pi a game (3,14 cas per game).

of course no one wants to play against that team any more

anyway, this is Maggi:
Longbeard 4 3 2 9 - Block, tackle, thick skull, dodge, guard, side step, dirty player.

true, you are not awarded a cas when fouling any more...but the game when he single handedly "killed" an entire undead team (10 casualties in the game of a grand total of 12) is written in the history books. Specifically volume 9112 of the most violent games ever played

bj0rn - ...

[bj0rn]

BIG GUYS
True, it is relatively easy to "pin down the minotaur/rat ogre for an easy turnover".
True, the ogre is a much better option than the troll.
True, who ever speaks of a treeman playing a game...

We do all agree, i hope, that the big guy rules have become "playable" when compared to the first "bug" guy rules Jervis posted all those years ago.

We also agree that theese rules are not perfect and that we can not forsee if any changes will make the rules perfect in any future at all.

we can however try to adapt...in order to to so we must analyze the problems we face when big guys are among us!

First of all, we can NOT give only the strength teams big guys. The strength teams win games by beating the opponents into the bloodstained grass of the blood bowl field and then scoring touchdowns. No need adding strength there if the agility teams do not aquire ways to counter the threat of mightier blows. The most obvious solution is of course a big guy for all teams. Big guys playing for agility teams are "worse" players than big guys in strength teams because they do not have the same backup as their "stronger" counterparts. On the other hand agility teams should be able to scatter that support while the big guns carry out their "debate".

so, big guys for everybody...

the next thing to consider is inter-balancing the big guys...domination of the blood bowl field should be through stragedy, not through unbalanced templates and negative traits.

theese guys are strength players, so strength should be used to balance negative traits and overall player stagedy.
The difference between bonehead and really stupid should for example be enough to grant the really stupid player +1 to strength and -1 agility.
hence the troll would have 4 6 1 9 versus the ogres 5 5 2 9
the ogre is a better option for throwing team mates and is more reliable. The troll on the other hand has the strength to make it up, albeit a bit more unreliable and playing it will often require special actions to avoid losing tacklezones and actions through the really stupid roll.

The treeman is similar to the troll, it starts out with the stand firm trait versus the trolls regenerate. Also the treeman has an AV of 10 but lowered movement. The treemans negative trait is on the other hand take root that "grants" the treeman a 50% chance of playing the whole game versus playing only the second half.
compared to the trolls negative trait i would say the favour falls on the trolls side.

Suggestion: change take root, make it the same as really stupid.

now, the wild animal debate:
wild animal should balance out versus bonehead. the problem is that theese racial characteristics are very different an thus it is difficult to determine if they are balanced. This suggests either a radical change in the wild animal characteristic or a different approach. All other characteristics (bonehead, really stupid, take root and off for a bite) require a dice roll. Why is wild animal excluded?

Given that wild animal is given a dice roll (as i belive it once had) to determine the proper course of actions we should assume that it would be in the lines of a 2+ (like bonehead). But with the added bonus of "frenzy" it wouldnt be unlogical to make the roll a 4+ like really stupid and take root. Thus a wild animal would require an active "friendly" player to point where to kill, which would reduce the dice roll down to 2+ like bonehead. On a roll of one the wild animal wouldnt be in the mood to obey...being simply to enraged to do anything except flail out its arms and froth, too blind in its rage to notice even an ogre walking past (effectively losing its tackle zones).

as for the "act first", i would rather like to see wild animals agility reduced by one (or down to 1) to represent their inability to do anything but performing actions that result in bloodshed (minotaurs would have agility 1 and rat ogres would have agility 2...or maybe even 1 as well).

as for the vampire...WE WANT A VAMPIRE!!!
suggested statistics: 6 4 3 8 - bloodlust (off for a bite), hypnotic gaze, regenerate
bloodlust: like bonehead (if the vampire rolls a 1, then it is occupied gazing at a delicious looking neck somewhere among the players or the crowd)

the kroxigor is good as it is.

bj0rn - ...

[Grumbledook]

I think things are good as they apart from take root should be made on pitch and I would like to see less ogeres about.

[Toby]

Can someone give me the 99% sure oger removal list ?

Is it Halfling, Goblin, Orc ?

[Thadrin]

halflings, Goblins and (still waiting on a GOOD reason) Dwarfs are almost certain to lose Ogres.

Chaos, Norse and Orc might.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

I still say it makes no sense to remove them from the dwarves and leabe them on the orcs. Orcs get Trolls and goblins...that's more than any other team out there.
Also where is the Wood Elf/ Treeman fluff that supports that team's access to a big guy? No matter what reason the rule makers put forth for the removal of the dwarf big guy there is a glaring contradiction to that rule.

IT'S DWARFISM!!!!!!!!

[GalakStarscraper]

Can someone give me the 99% sure oger removal list ?

Is it Halfling, Goblin, Orc ?

99%: Halfling, Goblin, Dwarf
50%: Norse, Orc, Lustrian
20%: Chaos, Chaos Pact

Galak ... odds maker to the BB universe

Postnote: If I got to vote (I would agree with everything in the 50% and 99% brackets ... not the 20%).

[Toby]

Thanks Galak.

Well let me get this right...

Halfling's should field Treemen, Goblin's & Orcs Trolls and Dwarf Teams Deathrollers instead of Ogres. Fine, agreed.

But why should Norse loose Ogre's and be stuck with Minotaurs but Chaos can choose between 3 different Big Guys ?

Are Lustrian and Chaos Pact added to LRB in October ?

[Mestari]

99%: Halfling, Goblin, Dwarf

Bunch of dwarf-haters.
Well, if the rest of the suggested teams lose ogre too, I can live with it, but if only those three teams lose them it's something completely uncomprehendibbibilele.

There's 0 reason to penalise one of the weaker teams that's supposed to be competitive.

[GalakStarscraper]

Thanks Galak.

Well let me get this right...

Halfling's should field Treemen, Goblin's & Orcs Trolls and Dwarf Teams Deathrollers instead of Ogres. Fine, agreed.

So goes the theory.

But why should Norse loose Ogre's and be stuck with Minotaurs but Chaos can choose between 3 different Big Guys ?

Pretty much its the history of the game. Go back to 1st edition. The only team that could field Ogres was the Chaos team which back then could choose between 4 Big Guys (as they also got Trogolydtes). Morg was a member of the Chaos All-Stars as was a Minotaur and a Troll. Ogres have always been linked to Chaos. .... the honest truth is that its the Human team that Ogres are a stretch for based on the BB game history. But its WFB influence that places the Ogre on Human teams.

Are Lustrian and Chaos Pact added to LRB in October ?

If I had to guess. Chaos Pact, Lustrian, Old World, Nurgle's Rotters, Necromantic, Vampire, and Khemri teams will all be LRB official in October.

Galak

[MickeX]

99%: Halfling, Goblin, Dwarf
50%: Norse, Orc, Lustrian
20%: Chaos, Chaos Pact

Galak ... odds maker to the BB universe

Doesn't Morg's appearance at the BB box cover lower the odds for orcs a bit?

Micke
(who still simply thinks Ogres on dwarf teams looks cool)