LRB rosters balanced?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:37 am

You can just view the fumbbl results from teams that played at the same tr thus negating the handicap table anyway and then it is just pure LRB results

so there is no need to scrap all the current data and I am sure its easy enough to set up an sql filter to just view stats from a certain time period

you can basically search through for anything thats been recorded on fumbbl (well christer can if you ask him) and because of the sheer volume of games the data is fairly accurate

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:11 am

You point at FBBL and say look here every thing is fine. While ignoring the basic flaw in the system. In FBBL you get to pick who and when you play.

If I was a Coach in FBBL I would be sure to never play a team that had an advantage over mine. The setting is simply to lose with statistics to be of any use in this matter.

FBBL can be usefully for some things, and is most certainly fun to play in. But, I have to disagree that it shows any thing at all about balance (except in the most dramatic of circumstances).

You have the right to disagree with me on this, but I stand by my earlier statements. All of which are based off of years of experience in both open schedule and set schedule leagues.

Now to clarify some things.

I have never said 3rd edition was balanced, and I would be a liar if I were to start saying so now.

Even if in theory the wood elf and other elf teams were balanced in there basic roster by the exchanging of 1 av for 1 movement. Then they would still have an advantage purely in the fact that they have Big Guy access.

Orcs and undead are at an advantage because they can do everything well, while at the same time excelling at bashing. Other teams need to focus on doing one thing to excel at it, and the rest of their game suffers as a consequence.

In conclusion, some select few teams are at a clear advantage over the rest. These advantages are clear to me, and should be clear to anyone else that wish to examine the rosters in detail.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:25 am

Thing is: when you can avoid certain teams the numbers are biased;

It would be interesting to play a "Best of 7" series between two Teams of diffrent races to investigate Balance. Starting with TR 100 newly created teams, the using all official team development rules.

This way you could pick your skills to match the oponent to what you think is best, and so on.

I think in a best of 7 Dwarf Teams are Superior to Wood Elf Teams;

While this would test the matchups, a league with 32 Teams of all 15 Races who play a scheduled league with one home and one away game would rank Races best.

Of course this had to be done multiple times to sort out the "Coach Factor"...

Whatever. "Open" Leagues are comletely worthless in that regard.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:40 am

hardly anyone avoids playing certain teams

i nearly always play teams that are better than me and make sure i play a range of races

sure not everyone is like me but then not everyone is like you

fixed leagues can also skew results, teams conceeding early in a match against bashing/foul heavy to keep their team safe

lets face it there are flaws in almost every system you can't just look at a small bias of coaches, 300 different coaches playing a game per day ensures a good range to go by

if you did just avoid certain races it would show up in your personal stats and records, if you can live with people like me taking the piss out of you cause you are too pussy to play against someone then by all means take the humilation, but most the coaches play for the fun or the challenge

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:45 am

I was talking about a way that would set up a scenario where one could make a proven statement on Balance.

2 Teams of each race, 2 Games against each Team. In the end you had to face everything there is in Blood Bowl at least once.

Of course coaches would have to be interested in the experiment...

On quitting: I think thats perfectly legal. Thats why there are rules and penalties for quitting. I don't think a team can compete for the top slot if t quits a lot of games...

Dark Lord (retired) · Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:52 am

Basically that is why i rought up the REBBL. See in a normal challenge league you can't avoid teams forever...if you want to play in the tournament that is. Since there is no tournament in FUMBBL you get those weird Amazon vs. Dwarf stats that somebody brought up earlier but in a league that runs a tournament you either play the dwarf team or you don't win the final.

Like I said, is FUMBBL really a LRB league? They omit the handicap table, the challenge format is altered and they don't have a final match.
How far can a league deviate from the LRB before it's no longer an LRB league?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:55 pm

there are tournaments in fumbbl and there has been a challenge league that has been running for months

suggest you get your facts right first buddy! ;]

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 3:56 pm

Can the data be sorted by these sections of FUMBBL, or is it lumped in with all the other games?

BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:03 pm

Can we get statistics from just that chalange league?

From what I can tell, all the teams in the LRB are ballanced against each other, with the exception of the stunty teams. Yes, some teams do better against other team, and some teams do better in the begining, while some do better at higher TR. But, the amount those teams do better is pretty small, in my opinion. I have yet to see someone win just because of the team they are playing. Coaching will always beat out pure statistics.

Every league that posts their reuslts here to show their opinion that x team is overpowered has a different team as team x. This, combined with the results of FUMBBL, makes me believe that the teams are as balanced. If there really was one (or more) team(s) that were so much better than anyone else that anyone could win with them, we would see that. Poor coaches would still win with this team, and good coaches would be unbeatable with this team, so this team would have a much higher win percentage than 50%.

Chris

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:11 pm

Blood Bowl has such a high luck factor.
Both on pitch and for team development.

I think its verry difficult to judge balance in Blood Bowl.

On needs to define the goal for Balance first;
In my oppinion, it is impossible to balance Blood Bowl for every Matchup.
You will always have the Situation that a perfect Wood Elf team is superior to a perfecty Human Team in that Matchup.

However when both teams have to play a league which means a pool of teams, the Humans will come out on top because they are not as fragile.

So in my opinion is that in a league of 8 where there are 4 strength and 4 Agility Teams, every team should have the chance to come up first.

And I think Blood Bowl is pretty close to that goal with LRB Teams.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:22 pm

No you cannot get the statistics for the challenge league. And due to the nature of the league (although, fun, challenging, a step in the right direction) it tends to be very bash heavy, as membership is voluntary. Also, a lack of a handicap table, really does kill the challenge system. The "hosts" of the league is an elf team, but since they are at TR500 they can take on just about any other team. As for any other "soft" team they struggle, although a Norse team did win the tourney one month.

There are some more balanced leagues going on, but most of those haven't proceeded far enough to give noticeable statistics (in the fumbbl league that I am co-commissioning, Dwarves were leading strongly, before we had to restart due to coach drops. And Dwarves were not one of the "clearly best" that was previously mentioned.)

But as for the legitamacy of fumbbl, you can do the search for equal TR teams, and due the search for any two races that have played against each other, and see that it is fairly even, proving MistWraiths point incorrect. There are obviously people that refuse to play stronger teams, or teams that are built a certain way, to make one question, but there are more than enough people that will play anyone to skew that statistics to more accuracy.

Asperon Thorn

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:52 pm

Grumbledook wrote:there are tournaments in fumbbl and there has been a challenge league that has been running for months

suggest you get your facts right first buddy! ;]

But do they just co exist or are they linked? Do the top 16 (or whatever) teams from the challenge league go to the semi finals? Or is the tournament just a "FUMBBL Open"? Considering the context of my post it makes a big difference. If it's just an open tournament then the same rule applies that you don't have to enter it. If, however, it's the top 8 or 16 team and they have no choice in playing I stand corrected.

Pritchard · Post by **Pritchard** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:06 pm

i tend to think how balanced the LRB is is 99% up to the skills of the coach. as a rookie, starting with the skaven was TOUGH. i lost 3 or 4 rats a game, but still managed to come out on top. its all what you do with your teams (i think we've all agreed that stuny teams arent really beign included here? granted, i've heard stories of amazing things happening with little guys, lets keep it to basics). i think the dwarves of all the teams have the largest potential for a beginer and experienced coaches alike, but i wouldnt go as far as to say they are better than the rest. it's also not right, imo, to base what the LRB gives as stats for a team on whats even. a team could have appear to start with overbearing stats adn skills, but have highly limited new skills to choose from, or no big guy. lacking a big guy can be a problem when going up agains skaven and their ogres, or imo the worst beign chaos with an ogre or minitour, but it's do-able. its all what you make of a team, not exactly what they are printed in the LRB as. every team has the potential to win

Maniac0301 · Post by **Maniac0301** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 5:58 pm

Toby - The sheer volume of fumbbl games makes luck a non factor.

To the others that say they would only play teams that they have an advantage over. What do you think the other coach is doing. Are they deliberately playing games that has a disadvantage for them. There are some people that will only play against people that are brand new or have some other clear advantage but since both coaches agree to the game I think that the statistics garnered are very viable. Also the lack of a handicap chart is a non issue. Again since games are voluntary in the open Division where most games are played you won't play a person with a serious TR advantage. I have a rule for my teams and that is I will accept any challenge that is within 10% str of my team no matter what race. I think a large percentage of the coaches hold similair views.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:26 pm

MistWraith wrote:You point at FBBL and say look here every thing is fine. While ignoring the basic flaw in the system. In FBBL you get to pick who and when you play.

Every league I've ever played in has been that way. I have never played in a league with a set schedule and have no desire to. I know many ppl do play this way, but as I've never done it I can't comment. I can't see how it would make THAT much difference though...unless a coach in question was a complete whimp and only played games he knew he'd win. In such a case I'd challenge the guy and foul the hell out of him every turn to teach him a lesson.

MistWraith wrote:If I was a Coach in FBBL I would be sure to never play a team that had an advantage over mine. The setting is simply to lose with statistics to be of any use in this matter.

Ooops, I guess you fall into above category.

Most people play for fun, and realize that a high win% is meaningless if you consistently only play massively favorable matchups. now, the occasional "recovery" game is fine if you've taken a severe beating, but doing it day in and day out is just plain wrong, and other people in the league will take unfavorable notice at such a lack of fortitude.

MistWraith wrote:You have the right to disagree with me on this, but I stand by my earlier statements. All of which are based off of years of experience in both open schedule and set schedule leagues.

Well I (as always) reserve that right, but it's all good.

MistWraith wrote:I have never said 3rd edition was balanced, and I would be a liar if I were to start saying so now..

In the previous thread that caused the creation of this one, you suggested that you thought they were pretty balanced in 3rd ed...but I don't remember the exact wording. That's what caused me to make the (possibly wrong) assumptions i made in my reply. most of what i said still stands however.

MistWraith wrote:Even if in theory the wood elf and other elf teams were balanced in there basic roster by the exchanging of 1 av for 1 movement. Then they would still have an advantage purely in the fact that they have Big Guy access.

Man, that is not at all what I said. I said that excahnging 1av for 1ma was NOT a fair trade, and they get a (arguably ) lousy big guy in exchange.

MistWraith wrote:Orcs and undead are at an advantage because they can do everything well, while at the same time excelling at bashing. Other teams need to focus on doing one thing to excel at it, and the rest of their game suffers as a consequence.

That's not always "better". It's the classic "jack of all trades" vs "specialist" argument. Remember the jack of all trades is master of none. Otherwise every d&d character would be a bard. Some coaches work better with the all around good teams, other coaches work better with the specialists. It's not a balance issue.

MistWraith wrote:In conclusion, some select few teams are at a clear advantage over the rest. These advantages are clear to me, and should be clear to anyone else that wish to examine the rosters in detail.

I have examined the rosters in detail, and still completely disagree, for reasons posited above.